Muñeca with Cynthia Gómez

Hello, Hello, This is Christina and Carmen and this is another episode of a Spooky Talels, the podcast for all things spooky, true crime, horror, myths legends in Latin America. But today is another book Club episode with a returning guest. Three times I think three times now our most returning, most most returns, most return guest appearances. Most frequent appearance. Yes, yes, Cynthia Gomez, welcome. Hello. I'm so glad to be back. I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time, and I'm really glad we're able to get it together. Yes, I'm so excited. I got the email about your new book, Munyaka, and she was like, and Cynthia mentioned she's been on the show twice before, and I was like, yes, and she needs to come back immediately. I'm so glad to be back. So let's talk about Munyaka. First. I loved it. Devoured it in like a car ride from Seattle to Portland. I just was flipping and flipping it was. It was so fun. But let me get the synopsis of listeners really quick. Vivid, surreal gothic about a queer Latine working class witch who sets out to rescue a bespelled heiress and loses control of her powers and her heart in the process. It is nineteen sixty eight Oakland and Natalia Fuentes has been hearing rumors about the beautiful Joletta Miramontes, the young heiress to Spanish colonial wealth, has been left paralyzed by mysterious illness. But Nati knows a thing or two about witchcraft, and she's certain that this is the work of dark magic. Armed with the plan that's a stretch to call it a plan, Armed with the plan to break the spell and earn a handsome reward. Nati works her way into the house as Buletta's caretaker and immediately discovers her suspicions are true. But who churs Bioletta and why? As feelings between the two women bloom into romance, Nati grows more and more reckless and is forced to face her own ghosts. Once she hoped would stay gone forever, and yes it was, it was such a fun read. She was armed with the concept of a plan, and there was a concept of a. Life never works out the way you planning anyway, So. Right, right? I hate I hate when I something like I was planning something and it goes wrong, and then I tell my dad like that it didn't go well. He's like, well, you know what they say. Actually I don't remember. The say in Spanish something like you plan it and then God decides something else. But it rhymes in Spanish. It sounds so much better. Let us plants. Is that the one you're think that's one of them? That's one of them. He says, there was another one, I'm pretty. Sure, and for for readers who don't speak Spanish, first of all, if you learn it, but it was if you want to make up laugh, tell on your plans. Mm hmmmmmm. He says that one too. But it's like something something the city. It isn't right. But no, no, I thought it. Maybe it doesn't right. Maybe this is it probably just made rhyme. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Let's let's have about the book. Yeah, I figured it out. Yes, by the end. Maybe I'll remember to check. Let's message him right now, Carmen. No, but yes, let's talk about the book. Because I remember when we last had you on at the end you mentioned and we were like, we're so ready, we are seated. But first the setting, because she not the main character. She lives in Oakland, but the media Montes family is not in Oakland, and what was the thought behind that? Well, so I originally was going to set the whole thing in Oakland, and I actually knew even what house I was picturing for the midime of this house. It's a house that had been It belonged to this wealthy heiress, right, not a Spanish colonial heiress, but just a wealthy heiress I you know, was in some kind of business in the late nineteenth century, and then it kind of fell into disrepair and people bought it up again. And it had at one point been a place for the Center for Third Role Organizing, and I went to meetings there in early two thousands, and then they couldn't keep it up anymore, and so it got sold to this guy who, but two or three owners later ended up becoming an Airbnb. So it's kind of like the story of opened I oh ohow okay. And the guy who bought it in a late nineties, early two thousands I think, or had it been a bit two thousands. Anyway, he got rightly pissed off some people because he made some reference like oh, I'm pioneering. Right mm hm, oh my god. Right. You know, obviously he's a white guys come in and pioneered this this you know, like mostly black and Latinian neighborhood. It sounds like he did actually learn a little bit and and you know, gain some humility. But whatever. So the house is physically beautiful. You can if you look it up, it's called ellen Kenna House. You can look it up. That's still listed on Airbnb. Uh. And so I was going to have them be there, or at least like a house that was was supposed to be that it was going to be in open And then I started doing research and I went to the Oakland History Room and I had all these like documents and papers and lists of langrets and stuff. But I discovered really quickly that all of Oakland is inside one landgret that was given to this guy, uh luis Marie Peralta. And like you know how the Peralta College is Peralta Street, right, yeah, it's named after it. So the problem I had was I didn't want to fictionalize the real life of the put out the family, because you know, these people really have descendants, and I didn't want to hurt their feelings. Maybe that I just I didn't feel comfortable borrowing, fictionalizing real people or fictionalizing the like inventing a different family and saying, oh no, it was this family. So I couldn't have most of the actions be in Oakland, which was kind of a bummer. But I picked Ornda because I had seen this list of like smaller land grants. And you know, a lot of writing is like actually way more logistical and detail oriented than it is like big lofty. Let's get into the metaphor, because for example, I thought, well, I could send it in Lafayette, and there's a La Fayette, Louisiana. People might first think that's what it's from. Will Not Creek. There's Willnut Creek everywhere. Orrenda is further than usual, so I'll sit it there. So that's all coming ended up being mostly not in Oakland, although Natty lives there, and you know, her mom lives there and her grandma lives there, So that was my concession. That's a lot of thought that I would have never known would go behind the setting the setting alone, and there's like so much more. I think I do. I don't know if every writer does this, But that's the way my brain works anyway, is it tries to leap like twenty thirty fifty steps ahead, and then usually ends up happening as I try to leak twenty or thirty fifty steps ahead, and then I missed the two or three steps that are right in front of me. But you know, ask ask anybody who's been time with me, and they'll tell you that. But writing is a way to channel productively that kind of thinking, because I do it anyway, whether I like it or not. And it makes it so much more fascinating that like this family really could have lived there, like because you did the research to like make it historically accurate. So that's very cool, very cool. I don't think I've ever been there, Orrenda, they've. Been there briefly, relatively small. What's funny is after I named the family that I'm on this because I didn't find them on any of the list of like the land Grant families, and it was also like kind of cool, kind of stuffy, a little bit romantic. And then apparently, you know, Renda, there is a meet out Monte High School. Oh so I wasn't gonna change it, I said, Okay, that's fine, It's just a coincidence. Nobody come after me and tell me that you know, you're you're you're worried that I borrowed your real ancestor and I completely fictionalized their life and how dare I? Yeah, it's such a novela sounding last name too, just like you. Right, that's what I thought it too. I watched a lot of novelas when I was uh, when I was younger, and like the yeah, okay, that could be this morning. Yeah. Another thing I wanted to talk about, what was the process or the thought behind the way magic works for NAT because that felts so unique and different to oh and Carmen and I were talking before before recording, but it also reminded us of The night the Nightmare Box itself too. That makes me happy that the connection to the Nightmare Box, because that's kind of where the character of Rama and that magic system kind of came from. I mean, it's a lot older, right I wrote. I wrote the Nightmare Box short story in twenty twenty, and I started working on Munyaka in twenty twenty three. But in terms of where you ask, like where the magic came from? You know, I remember having this conversation with two of my writing friends a good while ago, and we were just kind of, you know, talking through we're all writing and working on and one of the things I said, I was trying to figure out a different story in the Nightmare Box collection, the one about With and the Robe Thorns, and and so my friend t Naja said something like, you know, even even magic needs certain parameters, right, Like you need something to spark the spell. You need something hopefully to tell the spell who to work on, obviously, because you could really see it screwing up very badly if the spell doesn't know who to work on, and when does it start, when does it stop? And what does it look like? And so you know, I think, for example, I gotta watched some of the the movies that came from the Wizard Book, whose name I'm not gonna bother with because fuck her. Oh yeah, it's okay, we all know that. One, right, And for them, they just point a thing and they say two phrases and it works. And I remember thinking, like. It's kind of lame, right, yeah. And also there's just so many like leaps, and so if you're trying to think of opportunities for the magic to go wrong. Then you've just eliminated ways for the magic to go wrong, right, because again, if you if the magic doesn't know where it's gonna land or who the target is going to be, then you could really fuck somebody. Yeah, and if you forget and don't tell it when to turn it off. So that like I actually started a little bit with thinking about it's the magic's gonna have some rules, and then I just started playing with the spells and the role of music, Like that's how I figed dot music. That was so cool. I was amazed. I'm so glad you loved the music because that was so much fun for me to write, like picking the songs and trying to figure out, like, you know, some of it is like the you know is really obvious, like the edit James song I'm Gonna go wind right or you know, it's pulled outside, and that was really fun, and some of it was a little bit more metaphorical, and some of them were like, for example, I knew that I was going to put Nina, so I put a spell on you. I always wanted to put that in there. It was so damn obvious. It was could be ridiculous, so I didn't, and then others were a little more subtle, like the lyric Colling song. And so it was really fun to have magic be the spark because then music be the spark for the magic, because then I could just look for all the songs that I loved and include the songs that I grew up listening to that belonged to that time period. Because my mom is more or less the same age as Nappy, she was like a year or two younger, so those were a lot of her songs as well, and she still has the records and I used to listen to them i was a kid. Amazing. Yeah, that was super fun to read about all the music and just how connected the music was to the spells too. It's like somebody did a this, maybe cry a little. I was like walking out to bart and you know, you're not supposed to read your own reviews, but I do, and I tried it to have a sanguine had to tute about it, and I think for them most part, I do because I'm not gonna be able to stop reading the reviews because I'm just curious. And so this one woman actually made a playlist of every song, not just because I have a playlist of what I listened to when I was making it, right, but she made a playlist of like if I made a Dean Martin reference, she put that in the playlist, Or if I talk about Moonlight Sonata, she put that on the playlist. And so it really did make me tear up a little bit. That somebody made that and I got it on the Spotify and I've been listening to it, and yeah, so that's one of my favorite thoughts about getting to do this writing stuff, is getting to mess with music. Yeah, that was super cool. Another another thing I noticed, and I don't want to like spoil too much about the book, but because I want everyone to read it, it's so good. And again it's such a fast read. Like again, I was just speeding through it. But Nazi is not fully like she didn't finish her lessons from her grandma, and so that was and I felt like that was like an interesting choice. What was what were you thinking about he now, like not making her finish her training, and obviously there was like reason, like her grandma was kind of mean to say the least. Grandma was my favorite character to write, because yeah, she's just like normally and and you know it's not a spoiler, right, but like someone asks, if someone asks you, oh, is this your specialty, you're not just gonna say no, You're gonna say oh no, but this is like that's how we all talk. And grandma doesn't do that. She doesn't do like conversational conventions. And so it was really fun to write with that kind of freedom and just to write somebody who does not give a. Fuck, even though she really did it. I would not want to cross drama. I would not scary. She's really scary. And she's nothing like my own grama, my own grandmother. That's good, good to know. Yes, neither of my own grandma's was anything like her, So that was really fun too. Would be like what would my grandma do? Okay, the opposite every day. But oh sorry, I almost forgot that question we were asking about, like why not they didn't finish. You know what's funny is I I don't remember how much I thought about that. I think to have not the be like a completely vested which like she's all you know, she's got the lifestyle, she's in it. I think there's less pool and her being divided about like what relationship do I have with magic? And you know, there would be less, she'd be risking less, I think, to be going into the house. But what's interesting is like I do not remember now how much I thought about that part of it. I remember that was just always what it was going to be, that this was she's going to go back. She doesn't know how to do everything. She's going to have to, you know, by going back to magic. Right, she's gonna have to go back to the magic that she left behind from years before if she's going to try to break the spell, and she's going to you know, quickly realize that, Oh, I guess I should have kept more with my lessons, right, But I think that's as far as I thought about it. But I really like being asked about it. Even though I can't totally answer, like how much I thought about it, I can say that, you know, it does it makes the other journey that not be's on, Like what line do I cross? What line do I not cross? Does it matter? Like does it matter if I hurt someone, if I'm doing it for love or revenge? Can I control it? Like if she's already established, which that might be that there might be less less uncertain, a lot of that might be more decided. It would have been a completely different journey for her, for sure. Yeah, and it was fun to watch her or read about her winging it and be like, Okay, this didn't work. Why didn't work? Or on surprises didn't work? Like what should I try next? I went to this this workshop about it was exactly called. It was something like try fail cycles when I was first outlining, and that was the author laid out. And I don't even remember who gave the workshop because I've been to a bunch of them. They're kind of blurring together. But it was about different reasons why you might make your main character fail at the thing of setting out to do uh you know? Or do they fail and then they are set back? Do they have to sacrifice one goal for the sake of another? And I hadn't when I was still outlining it. I hadn't figured out exactly when she's going to fail. It's not a spoiler to say she fails right that first time. It would be a sparler to say what happens next? But then you know, to have her wrestle with Okay, what the hell do I didn't know. My plan didn't go that far. And it made us like it made her like think, well, I didn't really have a plan. And then I think her friends. And when that's telling, you're like, have you really thought about this? She's like, oh shit, my friend was right. Doris was right. I think the lesson we learned is that Doris is always right. Actually, yes, yes, never questioned Doris. Give her her money, give her her raise. She deserves every bit of it. Mm hmm, and she knows it and she knows yes, yes, I was Oh, before we I was gonna mention about the Grandma. She made me think of the if the main character from the Nightmare Box wouldn't didn't change, she would have been the Grandma. I love that comparison. I love that comparison and I want some day to like the character from the Namba Box, Serena, who's you know, really is not Serena. You know, she comes to certain crossroads and she goes one direction. But you know, one of the things that things that's interesting is how much people can really change, right, So, like you know, maybe or one of the characters says, like, you know, if I were in her shoes, I'd promise anything, and later I'd worry about whether I could keep it right. So I love that comparison because if we were to pick back up Serena, like five years later, ten years later, twenty years later, did she change right? Well? Did she try to stay on a different path and fail? Did she not try that hard? Because she was that interested? Like did she happen to her? Like yeah, yeah, but I love that comparison, And yeah, Grandma is I. I gave this interview that had this whole longer class explanation that I won't get into with. Grandma's a hustler, right, like. Oh yeah, that's what I was thinking, and I was gonna like I was thinking of how to phrase it. Yeah, she made me think of someone who who was like from the streets, and she just like that's that's her her code, Like I need to do what I need to do to get by, and that's that Like who are you to question me? You know? Yeah, And that's how Serena talks about to She's like, when did these you know, these goofy motherfuckers ever put food on my table? Right? So this book was set in sixty eight, and at that time there were black panthers. This isn't opened, right, A lot of actionsn't open. And that time they were black panthers selling the Little Red Book. And when you read essays like I've read an essay or two, like a interview with like with Fred Hampton who was murdered that long after that, she talks about the lumpin proletariat. And that's what Grandma is. She's the militariat. She's like because you know, she's got her little one bedroom apartment. She's not getting you know, huge big money off of her off of her spell she's surviving off of her spells. But her attitude is absolutely like it's the lump and proletary attitude of like, I gotta get mine. I'm in it for myself. I'm not necessarily actively out to harm you, but I don't care either, and I don't really care who I screw over as long as it means that I, you know, get. What I'm getting paid. Right, And then you have these other moral polls, you have not these mom, who is the class conscious proletariat. And that's why she rejects the whole idea of like being out for herself, And so she's so horrified by her own mom's morality, and then you have not theos kind of pulled in between the two. And I was gonna say, like a mix of the two, right, it's so fascinating to hear this. And then you have the parents. Boletta is also stuck, well not stuck, because she has a very different attitude towards her family origin. But Bioletta is also The position that Letta's in is she's got her husband who's like the Landed aristocracy. Right, he was kicked out of the Cuba for being sugar. Branti seeing origin story for him, I. Don't really want to spend more time in his head because I didn't make that interesting and the purpose self, he's a gretty asshole, that's it, right, A pretty asshole. Yeah, he's charming, he's a greedy ass And then you have the mom, missus Milamantez. Who's like the old Landed aristocracy, and Bioletta is screwed because neither of those classes of people cares for human beings at all. Right, And so so Berioletta is is a position where she's going to have a future, She's going to have to figure out who does she cast a lot of. Yes, and I won't say more because we don't want to spoil. It, right, That's what I'm thinking, Like, I don't want to bring up spoilers. I will say when I was reading it at first, I was like, why is it called Munika? And then when it when it happens, I was like, Oh, that's why it's called That's why. I loved Did you guys ever watched the movie Dolls? No Dolls? It's very cheesy, very silly eighties is it? Is it a slasher? I guess there's some of the conventions of a slasher, but I will call it that. It's from like movie cover the doll actually seen it. It's not to be there you go to be. To be is such a great source for to be is where it's I love to be to quote chat from Nightmare on Fair Street. To Be is that girl? Yeah? Yes, yes, So it's it's worth a watch if you like kind of low budget, cheesy eighties hoard movies. But there are dolls and I watched that. Okay, sounds very fun. Yes, there they're dolls and they got that reality like don't don't don't be greedy, asshole, don't be mean to kids, right, Like those are the lessons that the characters learn, and of course, you know, somebody has to not learn that lesson otherwise we don't have a movie. And so it's it's really fun to see how the dolls deal with you. If you're a greedy asshole and and or you're mean to children, I. Have to watch that kind of you. Chucky mars in the show because I think in the in the movies he's not as like defensive of like the kids. He kind of like messes with them a little bit, but he goes more after the adults still in the movie. But in the show he's like with this kid and he even has a conversation with the kid who like finds him or whatever. I forget why. The kid brings it up something about Chucky b like pro lgbt Q plus Like okay, Chuck is like, yeah, my kids trance, like of course I love Like he doesn't say I love the gays, but he basically says something like that. In this show. It is just show. I watched a few episodes and then it was it was unfortunately canceled because it was fun. It was fun. Yeah, yeah, I think it only had a season. I don't think he even had a second one. I that is a total departure, not a not a difference. Like it's like they took it and went off a completely tangential direction to like Child's play, right, because way never touches on gay themes. I mean, I'm sure you could find queer stuff for there if you look hard enough, but they never bring it up away or the other. Uh so they took with it. Yeah, it comes up because what's Chucky's the other supposed to their son, you know, with the Jennifer to lead all and him, then they have that the other like son. But it's like, oh my god, what is this dolls name? I don't remember. I know you're talking about, but I don't remember I And it has like nothing to do with Munyaka anymore, but I need That's okay. It's fun to talk about Chucky. We love Chucky in this house. And oh now I'm just wondering, like what would Grandma and Chucky do if they how about each other? Right? Okay, So Glenn Glenn, he's called himself Glenn, but he's like gender fluid, and I do remember that from the movie that's Glenn. Yeah, and very purple. Yeah. Yeah, and so in the movie, like Chucky is not as quick to accept him as Oh my god, what is her Jennifer Tilly? I keep calling her Jennifer Tilly, but that's the doll, you know, the doll version of Jennifer Tilly. She does accept him quicker than Chucky, doesn't. She try to kill Chucky because he doesn't accept something like yeah, something like that. But by the time the show comes out, apparently Chucky has changed hears He's actually supportive of good of Glenn. Yeah. You know, if even a murderous doll who like sucks with you know, black magic can accept their trans kid, then what the hell is everybody else's problem? Right exactly? And since actually, you know what this kind of does tin Tu Munya Goad because it's also such a stapphic love story. Well, the other connection is Jennifer Tilly. So Bound was one of my favorite inspiration texts when I was writing this, and when I was originally shopping and around sending it out to agents and the like, I just I pitched it as Bound meets Mexican Gothic. Oh my god, oh my god, I love this. When you were like Jennifer Tilly was like, how but now. And I will not get I will say that I borrowed like pieces from Gothic, pieces from fairy tales, and pieces from heist movies, but that doesn't mean I borrow all the pieces. And so so it's not a spoiler say like that there are elements where this is like a heist movie. But I do love the way like in heist movies there's like, oh my god, these characters are making increasingly more and more dangerous choices, and yes, what if it fails? Then something has to fail because again, if something doesn't fig on, you don't have a story. And so yeah, Bound is my patron saints and my my north star for this book. Oh I love that. Oh I love I love when we get to talk to obviously not just you, but all authors, but especially you, because so first we like, we love these stories that you're writing, but then getting into here like the inspiration behind them, and like that thought process is like I don't know if it's was spoiled to know, and our listeners will as will be spoiled to know. Well, it's really fun to talk about. So it looks like we're all. Doing that right, Well, we were just talking about like the queer aspects of the book and in the after what is called afterward. I was gonna say after thought, but I know that's wrong. Authors probably, Yeah, these authors not. It was super cool to read about the queer history that you looked into for the book and maybe just general like interest in that. But can you talk to us more about that, like maybe some of the queer history that inspired the settings and the places that I like her and her friends go to. Yes. Yes, So that is also really fun to talk about. And that also ties back to the Nightmare Box, the collection and a little bit the story. So I think I mentioned that they when I was talking to you guys about the night a Box collection, that there is a club called the Jubilee which was a semi underground club in East Auckland. I don't know when it opened for sure, I can I am pretty sure it was not open in like sixty five, when I have not been going there, but I decided that it was. I do that a lot. I go, Okay, I can't make a huge leap. I can't make you know if it's a semi underground club or I find maybe it might have been open a couple of years before we know for sure it's I'm not making a public gate club happening in Orinda it nineteen fifty five. I bet you I wouldn't fly right parameters. You still have to kind of go with the general trends, although you know some I'M stuff surprises right, like what I was. So one of the books that I referenced in that author's note is a book called Wide Open Town, and it is by an author who's still a professor at s A State. And she did all this primary source research trying to find about as much as she could about queer nightlife in the Bay Area before Stonemost, so before sixteen. I think she stops in sixty five or so. And so she did things like looking at arrest records, like where was public vagrancy or public indecency I think is probably the term that would have been found, you know, where were people being arrested for something that was illegal then? Because there were times when just two queer people in a bar was considered publican decency. So she did all this really cool research and interviewed people and like digs up old like facsimiles of flyers and things like that, But she also has photographs, and one of the photographs that just stuck with me, like, I can picture it and now if I close my eyes for these house parties. And that's where in the book, at the very very beginning, when not be describing basically for the first time realizing that she's queer and now all that, but there are other women and that in these spaces she could just be herself and she realizes all that like in a split second, is at one of these house parties. And so that was a huge revelation because it allowed me to answer the question of like, well, what is the clear spaces that were public were a little bit more common for white people to go to, right, Like, if you're a woman of color, you might have more social stigma, you might feel less welcome even if you're welcome, maybe you also want to meet other women of color, and you know, you don't necessarily want to, you know, you want to be among people who kind of get what you're going through. So yeah, so the house party was able to be a space for where women could go to, and so that was like just the fact that that picture was there was hugely pivotal because that is also basically the way I designed the apartment in my head where the party was happening, is it matched that picture. Different decor, but same shape, right, and same general idea. So then that book was the main research that I did. I found some essays about what that you believe was like the place where every once in a while, and that the will go in the story, and a few of the other clubs that were around at the time, and a lot of them seemed to have closed down by the late sixties, but I bet you there was at least one hunderground clunth and nobody ever knew of because that's how it goes, right, Stuff doesn't always stick around in the archives. Yeah. Yeah, And like whenever there's I don't know, something public or like that everyone knows about later, there's always something that like you didn't know about happening, Like there's always like a press like a before like you didn't just pop out of nowhere. So yeah, that makes perfect sense. There was like the wide Open Town was how I learned about this guy. Yeah, I probably talked about him before too. Oh, we we know about him because we did an episode as a known Yeah, I was on the our history podcast, Yeah, our history podcast. But yeah, because a lot of people talk about, oh, what's the guy there's a movie from Yeah, Henry, Henry, Harry Henry Milk Milk, Harvey Milk. Okay, people always bring up Harvey Milk, but there was already Jose who did it before him. Uh, And so it's just like like these stories exist, but we just like don't know about it until way later. But I remember when we talked about him and then I did a short little video that we posted about him on TikTok and Instagram and Instagram we had a shot of comments because I don't know, like the hateful bought people found it and they were just leaving these insane comments, so we turned them off. But on TikTok there were so many normal positive comments that were just like, oh my god, our people can do anything, or wow, I didn't know about him, but like as a queer person, it's so awesome to hear like how he like the I was gonna call him Henry again, Harvey Milk wasn't at first, and it was actually Jose. So yeah, yeah, a very fascinating life he had, Like. She was so fascinating, Like his mom was supportive, which, like, that's the thing too, is that when I started looking into this the stuff, I had to realize that I made a whole bunch of assumptions that weren't, you know, necessarily supportable, right, Like my assumptions were that before Stonewall stuff was almost never public, that it was almost always underground, and that wasn't true at all. And you know, similarly, like this assumption that most families were unsupportive. Well, you know, obviously someone unsupportive, but yeah, not at all. Yeah, yeah, And so so that was really like an important, yeah, bit of humility that I had to learn. And I'm sure whatever, I'm sure there are lots of other assumptions that I still haven't uncovered that you know, I need to kick in the pants about. But that was nice, nice to get r. Yet yeah, yeah, wasn't there a riot? Like, oh, people call Stonewall the riot, but like it was an uprising, But wasn't there one on the West Coast before there was? There's this little movie, a little I don't think the work that went it was a little short. It's a short film and I do not remember the name of the woman who pioneered it. It's also a word of trying to get rid of one vocabulary. Who brought up the history had made the film. But so yeah, so it was nineteen sixty five. It was the Confidence Cafeteria Riot, And I learned almost all this from watching that one short film, so you know, I'll have my knowledge is gonna have limitations. But it was this you know, like late night diner in the Tenderline, very close to where I actually live on Taylor Street and or and the space was like ended up being the Tenderline was a space for like a lot of trends and free people ended up because it was relatively expensive, there was a lot of night life, and the city was kind of trying to contain a little bit of like the pretty nightlife scene in the Tenderline even in the sixties. And so it was a place where a lot of people who were like sex workers or particular trends sex workers could come and hang out and like you know, spend fifty celts and a cup of coffee and stay all night and stuff and be relatively safe and safe until they weren't. Right. I think it was very similar to Stonewall, And from what I can tell, it was a little bit less of it. It got way less attention obviously because you know, none of us have encountered it. We don't encounter anywhere here as frequently as we encountered Stonewall. Like I didn't hear about it until a few years ago myself, Yeah, can't hear about it now. See, Like that's that's the thing, is that you know, it's we we keep having to learn this lesson and again, I'm sure I'll learn this in different variations the rest of your life, but that you know that there's so much stuff you just don't know about, and so you keep having to remind ourselves, like you know, absence of evidence is not evidence. Of absence, Yes, yes, And I think that's why I don't know reading a book like Munyaka, and also even like Munyaka makes me think of other similar books by Latina authors like Sidia or Isabel, but all of you do the same thing, where there's stories you know, obviously they're fiction, but like they're rooted in something very real. And I love that you included all the information you did in the authors though, because then it can send us down these rebel holes like oh oh what about this place and this place and this place. So that is like a very very awesome thing to do because obviously not everyone does that, and you have to like seek out interviews of like authors like they said, what But that's something that I love about your work and like all these other books that also have like it's a very real, real story. And that's the other thing that's beautiful about horror. It's like rooted in history. It can serve as like a vessel for such deeper themes because in your book, we have, you know, real history that happened, we have colonization, we have like I don't know, I feel like the patriarchy is another reason that Violetta is in the situation that she's in. Like, there's just so many themes that you're able to to touch upon when using horror as like the venue. So that's just I love it. That's one of the reasons why I love reading it and I love writing it. And there's so I don't remember, like because I've gotten to be on the show twice, No, I feel like, there's no way I'm not going to recycle stories. But do you remember, I don't remember if we talked about the backstory behind the movie La the Guatemalan one. I feel like if it didn't come up with you, I know I I have talked about it in a bunch of places, but I will always hear more about it because I love it. So go ahead, because I. Let I'd love that movie so much, and I love the backstory. But this particular backstory that I'm thinking of is why the filmmaker said he made it. He was in an interview where he said, look, I really wanted to make a movie about the Gauatemalan genocide, and there's not nearly enough. He wanted to bring it to life, but he said, you know, I don't think people would come to a movie that's quote unquote about the genocide, but we love horror movies. So that's why he did that. And it's a story like you can tell when you watch it. And this is a story that he's really been wanting to tell. And I can't say this is how we can see it and this is where it comes through. I'm not a film scholar, but we can tellent that we feel it. And one of the things that I am so grateful about being able to have I've been able to finish this book and that that it's connecting is because the backstory of this, the the loss of land after the Mexican American War, and just the irony that like the Spanish land Grand people, they stole the land from the Indians and that that was okay, and then they had it stolen from them and that that wasn't okay. Like just right right, like only we can steal land, not you clean right, you know, like yes, it was. It was the racism that they endured was was, you know, really fucked up and wrong. And yet also they stood on that racism on different Yeah. So that irony is something that I really wanted to figure out a way to explore in fiction, and I couldn't ever figure out a vehicle to do it. And so when I decided that I wanted to write this one, and I knew that I wanted it to be Gothic because it just lends itself to Gothic, I was like, well, Gothic is about being haunted by the past. Oh okay, now I can finally write my my, my story about the ironies of colonization and the Californios and the land loss. And so I mean, I feel like that's so much of what makes uh a story. A story's heartbeat is when it's like I've been wanting to say this for forerever, I finally forgid. Yeah, and I have to say that that for sure comes across reading reading the book. Yeah, thank you, I'm very glad it does. This feels like a good wrapping up point. But before we do that, was there anything else you wanted to mention about the book to the listeners that we haven't brought up. Let's see, we chad a lot plenty of things. I think that there's there's one thought that's kind of sematically connected to what we've been talking about, which is that, you know, I wrote this book for a bunch of different reasons. We've been talking about a lot of them, but that one of the things that I really hope is that this book will find people who I mean, you guys are basically like the poor readership for this book. Yes, yes, right, specific actually. The two of you. Because I was thinking about I think that was like, I have to write this for Carmen, and. I mean I actually was thinking about particular. But yes, but look, there are Latinas who grew up reading Jane Eyre and Wuthering heights and grew up reading all that. I mean, that's why he said, Garcia, like they grew up reading that stuff too, and they were able to to to go, yeah, okay, fine, but we're here too, right, and yeah because of the space that those writers took up, like they they carved out space for the rest of us. And I'm so grateful that they did that. And I wanted to That's what I also wanted to do. I wanted to I'm looking right now my copy of Jane Air and across the room, my very well worn copy of Jan here. And you know, I what I kept thinking about is, all right, you got all these books that are about like, you know, women running from houses, right, like women running from uh down their stone steps in the middle of the night. They're flimsy night, guess right. And what I wanted to do is be like, okay, but just who was scrubbing all those nightgowns? Yes? And what do they bring to the story. So if you've ever if that question sounds up trigging to you, or if you ever had that question yourself, or if you are the ones who scrub the nightgowns that are pissed off that you don't get to be on the page all the above, Like I think that's that's who I wrote it for. Everybody else is invited to read it as well, right, like it's it's a big party. There's room for everyone. But that's who I'm really hoping to connect with. Oh, yes, yes, before we go, we always like to do a speaker recommendation. Obviously is like our top recommendation because it's so good. But do you have any speaker recommendations yourself? Let's see? All right, well I will go with one that I just finished reading yesterday, which is Japanese Gothic by and well it shouldn't. I will say that, don't read anything more about the plot than like what's in the jacket. The jacket was helpful to me, you know, to help me figure out this was the kind of book I would like to read. But her writing is so good. It's very sparse and sharp and uh and she really challenges you and keeps you in your toes and the let's see, I will I will be very circumspect about which characters this is about, but she is so good at creating monstrous characters. So excited, yes, excited, I think you will dig it. I think your listeners will dig it. And yeah, I just finished it yesterday and it's still around in my head. Okay, yes, I need to move it up in my TVR. Japanese. Got one of my holes just cleared up, so I'm going to put a hold on that one next. Nice. Nice. I'm staring at like three library books stepped on top of each other that like, and then there's another in my backpack, and then the other library patrons are like, if you're not going to finish it, would you please let me. Actually have a library book in my house that I need to like give back because I haven't, so I need to sign it on that go to the library. I've been extending the I've been renewing the borrow to not like go back and return. Oh my god, because I need it for an episode, so for our history podcast. So is it? Oh my god, I can't remember the name of it. Something with his pistols in his hand. It's about a America parets when it's postil in his end. Oh wait, is that the author? Oh yes, I was thinking that the outlaws name. But yeah, that that is? That has to be it with. Well, it's about Cortes. Oh, my Godia Cortes. Yes, that is yeah, He's been on my list of topics to do for so long, and I borrowed the book, but then I got distracted and I got a book about Berta and that took up like way longer, like and it was gonna be one episode, and then it turned into five episodes of Historia as a Known or history podcast and so, and that put my put a hold on my research about Gregorio Cortez. But he hasn't been on my on my list, like that was supposed to be an episode like months ago. Well, I will be very eager to hear it when you do it, because I so when we were growing up, you know, like Cable would just show the same movie and over again for a while. It was The Ballad of Gregoria Cortes with Edward James almost yeah, and so I remember, like all I remember was that there was a whole thing about mistranslation, and that that was a huge engine in the plotter a huge pivotal point in the plot. But I don't remember a lot of the details. So I will very eagerly listen to that episode and learn all this. But I need to read it, so I'm not giving it back. But that wasn't even my recommendation. I was gonna recommend Marama. It's a anti colonial horror, a gothic horror, a Maori story. The director is it's his directorial debut. I forgot his name. I knew it. I made a video about it, and I knew his name in the video. But apparently it's a very like deep personal story to his family as well. But it follows Mary Stevens, who is Maudi, but she was like adopted by an English family, so her name isn't actually Mary Stevens. That was the name given to her. And she receives a letter from English. I don't remember the guy's name, but some English guy, and he sends her a letter like hey, I can tell you more. It's like a more fancy letter, but so it doesn't actually say, hey, hey girl, I can tell you more about your family because I know, and if you want to know, you need to come here to this house. And it's like this mansion on a hill, like this creepy, you know, English mansion, and it's like Victorian England is the time that it's set in. It was shown at the International Film festival here in Seattle, and that's how I got to see it because it has such a limited release. But if anyone finds showings near you, like a showing near you, I highly highly recommend it. It was a slow burn, as you know Gothic usually is, but when it gets there, oh glorious, and it doesn't shy away from like the horrors of British colonization at all. It like just puts it right in your face, like this is the horrible shit they did. At the same time, it shows you the strength of like the of Maudi women like it's it's it was such a good movie. And just the image like when you look up Marama you see her in her red dress, uh, and it's just such a like gothic horror scene, like a beautiful, gorgeous red dress and like a woman in this house, you know, like a big house. Though highly highly recommend it. I'm looking it up right now. I've seen a little bit about it, and then I forgot about it, and so that's a mussy Yes, I thank you so much for nudging me about that. Welcome. Do you have one carbon? I don't have a speak recommendation, So like a scene already said my recommendation would be Munyaka, and we already talked all about it, So just go read it. Yes, by the time this is out, it should be available, because this is going to be this Friday, or it should be available next week. I think whenever you hear it, just go preorder it, go go get it. And I loved myself June second, June second, and I. Love my second. So please ask your local library to carry it if it doesn't already, because I prajeictally grew up in the library and I really want to. Oh my god, we did too. We spent so much time in the Oakland Library, the one on what's that street. It's like, I know the bus would pass by it too, but it's the did you tate the forty yes? Yeah, yeah, so the one on the school near it? Yeah? Yeah, that was my house when I lived on forty seventh Avenue. Yeah, it's still there. The Mountain's Library. Yeah, it's beautiful. I love building. I love that. It is a beautiful building. Yeah. Spent all summer long there, we really did. Yeah, it's a beautiful place to spend the summer. Nostalgic. Okay, I'm sure you guys are too, that was your childhood? No, yeah, yeah, we even volunteered there a few times, like because so I, oh, I don't know what happened that I turned a book in late and then I had late fees and so I was paying it off and you and our brother were just coming along. Oh okay, why volunteer there? Then? Yeah, I forgot that, that's why. Okay. Oh and then one more thing before we go, is there anywhere that our listeners can either you know, follow you if you want to be found on social media, or follow your work? So I have the world jankiest website because I hate website anything. I hate updating my website, So keep your expectations very low and you'll be all right. And it's Cynthia says boo dot WordPress dot com. And slightly that's Jankie. Is the blue Sky account that I have and that I update more often because it's easier. So yes, but I do have like my my events and public appearances. I'm going to be doing a thing at local library September, so I'm really excited. Oh oh well, okay, and if. You are a barrier person, you and also come and see my book release party on June twelfth's, which is how Pegas's books in Berkeley. Oh oh, Carmen, you better go. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try to go. You're hardly invited to get twelve, but i know Modesta is. A trip, so and I'm like, Carmen, you better go. Oh okay, Well we'll put that information in the show notes. And on that note, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out a way too. As they watch out for the dolls in your house. Don't be mean to dolls, don't be mean to children, don't be greedy, respect women, and you should be just fine. Yeah, perfect, yes, perfect, and say spooky my my Hie Book Tells is hosted by Christina and Carmen, produced and edited by Christina, researched by Christina Carmen and with the help of Don Shout out with Don. If you're enjoying the podcast considerably, gonna say five star review, we would really appreciate it. If you don't want to the professonal review, just don't leave a review, but don't leave anything lower than that, please, I'm just kidding. You can reach out to the podcast at a spookytos at gmail dot com. You can go to our website at pookitos dot com and fill out the contact form. If you want to support the podcast, you can join our Patreon where we send exclusive stickers, have bonus episodes. Eight dollar members get an exclusive keychain. It's super cool. I got new ones and these ones are huge. And if you want to support, but you can or don't want to join the Patreon, that's fine too. You can also get some merch. You can find suret Says say a Spooky and old English letters. There's a beanie. I love the beanie. There's also a hat. There's a no Mamas shirt which is a fan favorite. There's a lot of options, crap TOMPs, sweaters. It's almost swetter weather. We're nearing a Spookie season, so yeah, get your hoodies. You're gonna need them. If you don't want to do all that, that's fine too. You can just listen like you're listening now, and that's the best support that you can give us, like I always say in our ad break and yeah, if you like history, can follow Estoria's Unknown Mining, Carmen's other podcasts, and you can find as Spooky Tells on all of our socials at a Spooky Tells All. This is in the show notes and we appreciate every single listen. Thank you so much, Stay a Spooky