The Case of Abby Hernandez

Hello, Hello, This is Christina from the feature. Because we recorded this in the past. As I said last week, this was supposed to be together with last week's episode, but we split it up in order to give ourselves time to get back into researching and recording after we went to Guadalajara to go see our Agilita and celebrate her birthday with our entire family. So that is why we split last week's episode. Also, at some point in the episode, you hear me say American Pie by Tom Petty instead of American Girl by Tom Petty, and I met American girl, not American Pie. I know that's not a song. All right, enjoy the episode and we'll be back next week. Hi, this is Christina and Carmen and this is another episode of Speaky Tales podcast for all things Espoogye, Andre, Grime, and America. Before I start the case, just trigger warning for rape that is part of this and also involves a minor And with that, feel free to skip to speak your recommendations so we don't want to hear that. But today I'm sharing the case of Abby at Nandez. So in twenty thirteen, just before turning fifteen high school freshman, Abby was walking home from school when she vanished, and like, no one knew what happened to her. So she grew up with her mom and sister in north Conway, New Hampshire. She grew up with her mom and sister in north Conway, New Hampshire. It's a small toursy town, considered super safe. In fact, the whole state is in the list as one of the safest states in the US. Wow, back then it was true. Today it's still up there in those like statistics. So yeah, people moved there because it's considered safe. That's probably one of the reasons why Senya at Nandez Abby's mom moved there after her divorce, because now she's a single working parent. She's got two daughters to raise, right Yeah, and she worked long hours as a nurse, so this seemed like the perfect place to raise Abbi and Sarah. And Abby was considered a very nice teen, always positive, always very friendly with everyone. She talked to everyone as if they were friends with her already. She studied German and robotics as a freshman, which is crazy to me. Robotics, that's wild. Yeah. She was super athletic, into sports and she had a boyfriend Jimmy. They loved each other as much as high school sweethearts, can you know. Yeah, And things were great for her and her family until October nine, twenty thirteen. Abby had not arrived home from school yet, and Senya, her mom, started getting worried. But she was like, you know what, maybe she's with friends at school still, So she drove up there to look for her. But when she got there, the librarian told her that she had already left. She saw Abby leaving, so now she's even more worried. She gets back home, i'd be still not there. She then calls the hospital, the local hospital, to see if she checked in there, and maybe she got her on the way home, and she's just there. She hasn't checked in, but no, she's not there either. Finally, at seven pm that night, it was too long for her, and Senya went to file a missing person's report. And she did not for one second think that Abby ran away. It wasn't like her. Plus, they were getting ready to celebrate her fifteenth birthday in like four days, so it just didn't seem like she would run away at all. And luckily, the search did happen very quickly. Local police and FBI got involved fast. They went door to door looking for her, and again she disappeared three days before before her fifteenth birthday party. So instead of holding a party for her, the party that they were already planning, they ended up doing a vigil for her. A lot of people attended in the community. Oh my god, that's so sad it is. Can you imagine? It's terrible? And just within weeks there were over five hundred tips called into the hotline that investigators had set up, but there were no concrete leads at all, and all they had is the following information. Abby left school at two twenty nine pm. She walked through the field hockey Field, down Eagle's Way and into a power line trail near the school. She was seen on that power trail power line trail between two thirty and two thirty five pm. She sent Jimmy, her boyfriend, a heart emoji at two fifty three pm as she walked, and he was on the bus. Fifteen ish minutes later, at three oh seven, her phone signal disappears a lost signal at the cell tower on the west side of Cranmore Mountain. And that's all they had to go on, like nothing else but they believe that that window of time between two fifty three and three oh seven is where something went wrong, something happened to her. They didn't treat this like, oh no, she just went missing. Immediately, they were like, she was probably taken. So, you know, they did their jobs, because there's so many of these cases where they're like, ah, she ran away, and they don't do their jobs. But here they led into action, which Sily is like rare. Yeah. So they started questioning family and friends, which didn't give them leads. It just showed them how close she was to everyone. And one month went by, still nothing the media on her. The reporting started dying down. Meanwhile, her mom and sister fell into despair, still looking for her, putting up signs everywhere. They're still going door to door and all this chaos of trying to find her, Senya ignore daily tasks and things were piling up in the house, including the mail, because that's just like one of the last things you open, I feel, yeah, even like on a regular name, you know, imagine, Yeah, on top of that, dealing with your daughter being missing, like exactly the last function amount. Yeah. Yeah, So she went for she went weeks without checking her mail, and her pile grew larger, and in that pile there was a letter from Abby. What Yeah. The letter read the following, Dear Mom, I miss you and I love you so much more than you could imagine. I'm sorry I did this. I've seen the newspapers and TV news, and to answer your questions, yes, I'm alive, I'm safe, and I'm healthy. I really miss you, mom, but I won't tell you where I am. I love you so much. Please stay strong for me. I'm staying strong for you. I've come to realize that, along with love and courage, hope can speak louder than fear. Please don't lose hope. Hang in there for me. Mom. I had a dream where I came home and I gave you the biggest hug ever. I don't know if it matters, but I like to think that it does. Please don't forget that I love you. Please give Sarah a big hug for me, and tell her that I love and miss her so much. I pray that all your hopes and dreams come true. Love Abby, Oh my god? And what this really her? That was the question of the hour? Really. The letter was postmarked October twelfth, twenty thirteen, and again she wasn't missing October ninth, okay, but Senya Hernandez her mom didn't see it until November six wow, because again her mail was piling up. Yeah. When she first saw the letter and it said dear mom, she was excited because she's like, oh, it'll lead us to her or something, you know. But after she read it, it felt wrong. She's like, yeah, this is her handwriting, but doesn't feel like anything she would ever say. She's been forced to say something maybe mm hmmm. Yeah, and she didn't think first. She was like, yes, it's her handwriting, but I don't think these are her words, Like it sounds like someone else is saying this. And Sanya handed this over to investigators who confirmed by DNA on left on the paper that it did belong to Abby, So she did write the letter, and they held on to the letter, having possession of the letter for a month before giving this to the media, like telling them, yeah, we received the letter, because you know, big cases like this, I have to like keep people updated. So they held onto the information for one month because they were worried that if this was a letter by her and she sent it a secret from whoever was keeping her. If they gave out the information that they received the letter for her from her, it could put her in danger. So they didn't say anything for one month. Then they finally did report this and I when I read this, so the media then reporters they all were like, well news ankers and like all those places, They're like, well, this is is this even a missing person's case? Was she even taken? Or is this a runaway And despite investigators confirming there belief that they are treating this as someone who was abducted, not a runaway case, media and local residents started turning their turning on the family. Oh wow, they were angry and they believed that the letter was a confession from a runaway teen girl. Okay, but also like why get angry about that? If this isn't a runaway girl, then clearly like something is going on in the home that she's running away from. So if that was the case, like I would still feel concerned for this team, you know what I mean, even if it's like, oh I don't want to follow the rules or okay, well, how can we work with this family to for them to live with each other? Because anytime, even if it's a teen running away. Like that's sad still, you know, like that's still concerned, right, But people don't. People They think like teenagers are adults, you know. Yeah, No, they're little. They're babies in them in the scheme of a lifetime of a person, Yeah, you're a baby, Like, yeah, you're a baby until you're thirty, you know. I'm so you're a baby. You're still baby. We're babies. Yeah. So yeah, people were angry and they were like, she's wasting time and resources because this was treated like a kidnap victim when she's clearly a runaway. Yeah, and people were calling for the family to pay back the money that the Conway Police Department and the FBI spent, Like this kid who fucking hooh bitch. I hate when they do that shit. That reminds me of that other case where people were accusing I don't remember names as always, but they were accusing the They were accusing the victim who was kidnapped. Basically it was a woman. It was an adult woman, but she was kidnapped with her husband. Well, they somebody broke into their apartment. They held them a hostage or whatever, they taped them up, couldn'tain anything, and then they left him tied up, and then they took her and then they blamed him for it. Yeah, so they first they thought it was him, even though he had nothing to do with it. And then when she came back, they accused her of faking the whole thing, like gone Girl, because Gone Girl had just come out. Yeah, and I'm like, these people have been traumatized and you're over here, and even and the police, the law enforcement came out and they're like, she owes us money this and that. I'm like, who fucking cares? Like, I don't care how much money is to waste it on them anyway. Yeah, if anything, like, you should be doing this for free, if anything, you should come out directly out of your patrick because it doesn't exactly. So, Yeah, people were calling for that, for that money to be give back, and that is so much of books for real. I can't believe that. No, And even in the midst of all this hatred, they were suddenly getting online. They did not waiver in their belief that she was being health captive and she needed to be rescued. And they were right. This was supposed to be their community, and they were online saying shit like sounds like a runaway punk this. Okay, this has been fishy from the beginning. Oh I can't stand people. Yeah, even rumors in her former school started to spread. Kids were saying that she ran away because she was pregnant, and her sister and bff her Bessie went to the school and they were appalled at the rumors. Oh my god, I would started throwing hands at the school and yeah, I'm gott in so much trouble because every day it would have been fisty cuffs. I would fighting like growing up because no, you're not going to say this ship while my sister is literally finding for her life somewhere, you know. Yeah, but that just goes to show like people love to gossip, and it's like this is why, like when something is announced that's something like this is happening, Like I don't go online saying oh this probably happened, Oh this probably happened, like it's it's messed up. Yeah. They people engage with these kind of extremely sensitive and difficult topics. They engage with them like they're like they're like a circus show. I'm nicking of the when the emberor heard and not to bring everything back to emberhard. But we always talking about But yeah, I think of the how people were acting during the Ember Herd and johny Depp trial, and I remember when it is over and Billy Saria and caught a lot of flak rightfully so about her saying like, oh what what am I going to watch now? Like and uh, somebody I remember at work they were talking about this too, like it was like entertainment. And I'm like, these are people's lives where toxicity, dysfunction, and abuse took place. Yeah, when they don't, it sounds like we're reaching a little bit because at the end of the day, we do talk about your crime. But I feel like we're sharing either cases where there's like injustices, like you know when we talked about the activist in Mexico or here. I think by the end of it, you'll see why this case is like so important to learn about. Yeah, and not everyone is doing that. But again, like you know, you're free to consume whatever you want, right, I'm like, go ahead, Yeah, I feel like to listen to an episode on something is not the same thing as tuning into a trial every day at eating popcorn while you're watching the trial. Yeah, like while it's actively going on, treating it like it's a fictional movie. You know, that is weird ass behavior. Yeah, that is weird to me too. But if you know, if that's your thing, maybe just don't be public about it, or maybe just don't know really truly. So again, luckily this time around for Abby's case, law enforcement was more than incompetent, because again we do see cases where they're not they're doing the opposite of working there, I don't know, doing nothing. So here they were like, no, the public is wrong here. We know Abby didn't run away, and they were like, she didn't take anything with her when she went missing. All she had was your school backpack, Like and it was just her school backpack. She didn't have clothes in there, Like, this isn't a runaway, yeah, because runaways take things with them, like usually right, they'll have, you know, change of clothes, something. She had nothing with her and nothing poigned to this. So they're like, no, this is a clear case of abduction, and they continue to treat it that way, and that is excellent because again it's not always the case. But sadly, even though they're working hard, they're not getting any nine months go by, the case is cold. They have no idea where to move from here until July twenty, twenty fourteen, when Abby walked home, opened the door to her house and said, mom, and she was like, Abby, do what this is? Like the case I was talking about? I know, let me ask how people reacted when she came back. Actually, no, oh okay, it was good. It was good. So she was like Abby, asking, like, is that really her? There's no way. But then they run to each other. They hug each other for like the longest times. It's beautiful. But like, what happened? Yeah? Has she Yeah, I'm gonna tell you right now. So that day, on October ninth, twenty thirteen, Abby decided to walk home instead of taking the bus, which is normal. Sometimes she walked, sometimes she took the bus. It was not abnormal for her to choose to walk instead. She did either or on whatever a randy given day. Yes, and she had been wearing a brand new pair of boot that was an early birthday present to her. And yeah, why not walk in her walking boots? You know, boots were made for walking. Yeah, I was just gonna see that, I know. But the boots were not broken. In yet and so as she walked, her feet were really hurting and blistering, and she was like, I hope they were in Doc Martins. I know you suffered through those. Let me just go on a real side journey about how my feet or tore the fuck up by a pair of Doc Martins. And I love these shoes, Okay, their platform I think they're called the jade platforms. Maybe burgundy color. Beautiful, beautiful shoes, beautiful. Anyway, I made the mistake runing into a concert and I was like, well, I am I going to be walking. I'm just going to stand there, but I'd take into consideration that parking would be for and like walking the stairs and all that. Right, I was just like standing is tiring on the feet too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. I didn't think about any of that. I just thought about my outfit. And I was wearing black highway pants and it's like cute, like burgundy, like lace, like crop top type of situation with my matching shoes oversa damn jacket. Cute, right, sounds cute. And my friend sees me, she's like, are you sure you're rained? Like you want to wear the shoes, And I was like yeah, She's like seriously, And I was like, yeah and whatever. Getting there wasn't bad, but then walking out, it was raining so stormy actually, and so my socks got wet and I think it was like the friction of my wet sauce against the boot scraping the back of my foot. I don't know what you call that, but disgusting and truly disgusting. When I finally took my socks off, painful as hell. I couldn't even take a step without feeling like my the cut blisters I had, I couldn't take a step with that feeling like it was opening. Yeah. And then let me tell you, oh, go on, Oh, I should say I couldn't walk because of the disgusting feeling. I couldn't wear shoes. Yeah, And so I was like, I'm walking from home. I wore my slippers to the office just to get my stuff, and then I was like, I'm not coming in until I can't wear shoes again. No, I don't blame you. I've seen some nasty blisters as a as a former medic in the army. Oh, I'm sure it was one of the things that fucked people up the most, especially these long Assbrooke marches, I saw some wizzies. They are no joke, like they really aren't. Blisters, literally are no joke, like I would I completely understand that. She did not want to walk anymore, so her feet were getting destroyed by these new boots. They weren't broken again. So when a car pulled over asking if she wanted to ride, oh no, she agreed because of her blisters. Plus she thought, this is literally such a safe city. It's nothing happens here. The person seemed nice. Everyone was so nice in Conway, you know. So she was like, yeah, I would like a ride, and so as they drove, then she started getting like an uneasy feeling. So she didn't tell the man her address and asked if he could drop her off at a nearby restaurant. Smart yeah, but then he was like, no, I need to make a step first, and then he went to a home depot. She was like, actually, I can walk from here. I'm not far from here. She was not close to her house anymore. But she's like, no, I need to get out right, And so she was like, I'm just going to go home from here, like I'll get out here, no worry, Like thanks for the ride. But when she said this, he pulled out a gun. No, oh my god. Yeah, and he told her if you try to scream or to try to escape, or make any effort to escape, there will be consequences. And he told her he could blow her brains down right now if he wanted, or he could slit her throat if he wanted to. Then he grabbed a baseball hat that he had, he put it on her. He put a jacket on her to like disguise her, and he handcuffed her. All of this, he was just strolling for a victim. It seems that way, like he was ready. Yeah, And then he told her bear with me. I'm having a hard time in my life. I mean, these kind of things happen. There's like a trigger. Yeah. Yeah. So she told him she didn't judge him for what he was doing because she realized, like, I need to get him to trust me if I want to stay alive. God, imagine that intuition and the smart Yeah. Yeah. She was also hoping her phone was being tracked at this point because she still had it on her, but then he took it and broke it. So this is where they lost signal. This is where that happened, and he drove on and she had her head down the whole time because he had a gun like pointed to her the whole time. As he drove. She would occasionally try and peek out the window and she could see they were leaving Conway and heading into the mountains. And she could tell he was a winning traffic lights because they have cameras on them. So he took these back roads into this rural wooded area thirty miles north of Conway to his home. And in the home she recalls passing by like these don't tread on me flags? Oh my god, of course, right, always one of them, you know what I mean? No, because yeah, he put her in a small storage shed on his property, which was a mobile home and I can't get over that. Don't try it on me, but I'll tread all over your rights. Oh yeah, that's going to train on you as a human being. Yeah. Of course. He had a mobile home on a property that was four Brookside Drive in Gorham, New Hampshire, and all over there were American flags, guns. He even had a framed copy of the US Constitution on the wall. What the fuck the hypocrisy? Like, yeah, these people are deranged, that's why. No, truly, when he put her in the shed, he put a T shirt on her head and then a motorcycle helmet over her over the T shirt like that shit is socifocating. This is horrible what he did after this, he put the T shirt on her head, then the more cycle over her head, and then tied her up and then he proceeded to rape her after this, and then he just left her in the shed. Hours later, he came back to show her media footage, so like that night, because there was already a report that she's missing, so he showed her the media footage of that people were looking for her, and then he left. And then some days past he came back to the shed and told her to write a letter to her mom, telling her she was okay and not to worry. And she did write a letter. And she used this opportunity to write a letter to write or to use her nail to dig out the words like help, hoping he wouldn't find it, which is smart. But then he did find it, and he came back, used the sun gun on her and raped her again. Then he had to write another letter, and this is the one that her mom did receive. So yeah, they were all they were right all along she was being forced to write this letter. Yeah, and you know, the days went by, she prayed every day, putting up with more assaults and torture from her abuser. As more time passes, Abby keeps trying to gain his trust and learn more about her captor. Eventually he starts slating her read books that he owned, and he gives her a copy of a cookbook and this is where she saw his name from the first time, because it was written in the cookbook. And so before this he was like, call me master. I'm telling you, Yes, these people are deranged. Yeah, Like, is the connection between the kind of beliefs he had and behavior like this? It's just it's it should be studied. It has been studied, you right, Like, of course, someone who has these beliefs, who believes women are second class citizens, it's not a leap to then go out and abduct a teenager, sexually assault her and rape her and then be like call me master, Like that's why feminism is important, That's what No, And it all comes back to on little things, little jokes, little you know, it's humanization. It leads to this but people always want to excuse it and like, oh, it's just a joke, Like, no, bitch, it's serious. Completely. And during her time captivity, something else happened where police ended up feet away from the ship. She was being kept up, but she didn't know it. They didn't know it. Nobody looked for her there because there was a whole different situation. During a car accident, Nate Kibbie followed a woman home, like there was a minor car accident, right the person that hit him or he hit her, it just not clear. What happened was a woman. He followed that woman to her house, trespassed into her property, and then he was in her driveway taking pictures of her car. Of course he did that because he's deranged. Yeah, And when she told them to stop, he got all confrontrational and pushed her to the ground and police arrived within minutes. He was arrested. During this, police took his gun, and part of his parole deal to be able to like not go to jail for this basically was for him to hand over his weapons collection. So police went to his property to take all his weapons, and when they arrived, it was very strange to them that he was like they expected like a firefight for this because he's like my second Amendment. He's one of those people, right, But when they arrived, there was no fight. He was eager to give them his weapons to get them to leave. Yeah, he had them laid out in the front like all ready to go, all the paperwork, like here's this one and this one already like so that they wouldn't inspect anything. I'm surprised the search isn't an aspect of this. Yeah, I'm surprised they were in like not that I'm calling for more right, for the police to be able to do more things. It's it's a it's a slippery slope, it is, it is. Yeah, but yeah, I know they he grabbed his weapons and left, and it's just it's it's wild to think that she was right there and yeah, they didn't know. You know, so time goes by. She doesn't know how much time passes. Every day she thinks, this is the damn going to die on. I want to escape, like you know, things like that. She's worried about her family, if they'll ever see her, if she'll ever see them, if she'll ever be free again. Yeah, Nate Kibbie kept her ganged at all times, and he would play loud metal meuse so no one could hear her even if she screamed wow. Eventually he was like, all right, this is like a little much, and he took out the gag and instead he was like, this is a shot collar. Here's this shot collar. Put it on, and then he told her to scream so she could so that she would know the feeling of being shocked if she screamed that day that he A little bit after he gave her the shot collar, he told her they needed to leave because she the police knew too much. She knew too much, so he about him and she He put her in her trunk and he drove away. And it seemed like ours to try and keep track of what was happening. How long it had been she played. She played American Pie in her head over and over again because she loved Tom Petty and so she knew that song and how long it was. I didn't know that song, oh, taking that movie. The only Tom Putting song I know is the free Falling one. Free falling. Yeah. Little did she know he was driving in circles and he went right back on to his property. She didn't take her anywhere, what the hell? Yeah, probably just to keep her on her toes. Yeah. He put her in a different room, still inside the shed, and he told her this door is made to catch on fire if it's busted open. Oh my god, to scare her. There never was. Yeah, But from this point on she got to know him more, gain his trust more, and he told her about his marijuana business, his dislike of the police. When he would tied her up, he would be he would be like, I only know how to tie you up like this because it's what they did to us. Turns out they are the police. And he had a history of being out of prison starting from his teens. His adult criminal records starts at eighteen with an assault. Wow. Again not really surprising. Yeah. So she would listen and when he would talk and say all these stories and just he would go along with whatever he says. She's like, he needs to think I'm on his side. Yeah, for me to be let go one day. And so she even got involved in his counterfeiting money operations. She would help him with that. He told her that he was going to start doing this and that he could do this because of all the money they had taken from him, it wasn't wrong for him to start printing fake money, and she helped him with this endeavor. And after he started this fake counterfeit business, he was also apparently dating on the side or something, because he met a woman named Lauren Munday and they met online. They met at a hotel. They had a normal date whatever normal date with Niate Kibby And how that tells yes, thank you, that's the words I was looking for. They had a good time together at this hotel. He offered to pay for the hotel and he left her three fifty dollars bills and she tried to use one of them later at like a store or something like that, and it was flagged as counterfeit and she was arrested. But then she told the police, well, this man that I went on a date with gave me this bill. It's his fake money, it's not mine. And so she was like oh, because of that. But then when she was like oh, she called Nick Kibby and told them, cussed him out and told them like you better watch out because they're coming for you because I told them everything, this is your fake money, not mine. How dare you send me up like this, things like that. And so right after she hung up on him and cussed him out like that, he went to Abby and told her I'm letting you go. Oh, the police are coming for me. And she had no idea why, but she didn't know this is what happened, that the fake money situation. But she went with him. He drove her back to Conway, North Conway. They stopped at a dairy queen before and then he drove to the same spot where he kidnapped her from and he told her to get out, and then she slammed the door and watched him as he the man that tortured her for months, drove away. What the hell? Then she walked home and before they left his house, he gave her a fake story to give to law enforcement that she was told to say that he was an older man and he was going to kill everyone if she said anything about him. And she believed this at first. Don't say anything, yes, of course, but then after a week she was like, you know what, no, and she told law enforcement everything, that he was nakeddie and all this other thing, all these other things, and law enforcement spent his home. They expected a firefight because by now he had gotten his guns back, but no, he turned himself in and then during the trial he he was charged with more things. But eventually he was able to they were able to make a deal where he only pled guilty to set down felony charges yeah, including felonist aggravated sexual assault, kidnapping when it's tampering, and criminal threatening. And at first it seems like unfair, like Abby and her family was like angry because this meant he was given less of a sentence because it was not that many charges because at first it was like two hundreds something chargers. But then prosecutors were like, well, this is better because you don't have to testify, you don't have to go up against the judge yea, and like relive everything and then not even the judge, the defense attorney. That's what it is. Mainly, that's right. And so in the end they're like, you know what, no, this is right because he's still going to go to jail at the end of everything. So two years after returning home at seventeen years old, Abby faced her thirty six year old abuser and gave her impact statement at his sentencing. This is a part of it. It seems like forever two years ago. Two years have gone by, both fast and slow in different senses. But I often think about Nate Kibby and what he did, and what he did affects my life on a day to day basis. My name does not mean the same thing anymore that I did before October ninth. I'm intending school and I'm afraid to let anybody know what my last name is. Nobody knows who my last name is. I did not put you in prison. You put yourself in prison, So I can't carry that blame on my shoulders when it's simply not true that I put you in prison. When you decided to point that gun at me, that was not my choice. It was not my choice to go to your house. It was not my choice for you to rate me. It was not my choice for you to threaten me. You did that all by yourself. There are certain aspects of my freedom that I can never get back. But in that same aspect, I want you to know that I appreciate my freedom because of you that I enjoy and I appreciate life because of you, And I never look at sunshine in the same way. I never think about fresh air in the same way. Oh my god. And at seventeen, she's telling this to a man who did this to her, Like that's crazy. Her mom also addressed Nate Kilby during the sentencing trial and asked him what She said, It's all I can think about. Can you please tell us why you did it? Like she wanted to know why, But he never did. He didn't say anything. He was sentenced to forty five to ninety years in prison. Wow. And I was listening to twenty twenty ABC twenty twenty. I think it's who does it? You know the show They did an episode on this and there's an FBI profiler talking about her case. And she said, if I had to make a book about what to do when you're kidnapped her, her case would be like number one, where you do what she did, try totze and up peace. Yes, yeah, that's what the profiler said, Like if you know you were to study, like what can you do? Not that Usually there's something you can do, but sometimes there is like this. Yeah, I don't know. It's just so wild because like you hear of other cases like I don't again, I never remember names, but I read one of damn, what's a guy from Mindhunter anyway, one of his books, and he was talking actually I read Mindhunter. I think it was from mind Hunter, oh the book, yeah, yeah, And so he was talking about the guy who killed a bunch of like nursing students. I think it was that guy. And he before he went on that ravage, he assaulted it and raped this woman and when she tried to like appease to him, to try to get him to calm down, and made him more angry and he killed her. So it's like hard to be prescriptive and say you need to do this one thing, like honestly, there is no one thing. And obviously people who are abusers just need to stop like like that. I don't know that's true. Five years after all this, nineteen, Abby gave birth to a baby. She told ABC twenty twenty that what she learned from this is that no one should lose hope. Hope is something that no one can take away from you. She now works as a hairdresser and even served as an executive producer on the movie Girl in the Shed. The Kidnapping of Abbi Hernandez, a Lifetime movie that stars Ben Savage as the kidnapper. Wow isn't he all weird? Now? Is he like the one that sounds super religious and doesn't talk to his former cast world? Oh that's where the name sounds form eliter. I don't know. I have no idea. I could be wrong. I could be very wrong. Don't trust me on that. Are you talking about the guy who also has a sister that was in one of those shows? Also? I forgot which one, the one with the Mary Kay Nashie Wilson, because he was on a show from the nineties or eighties whatever it was. And I don't know. That's not Been Savage. I don't think so. He's the guy from Boy Means World, the main guy from Yeah, yeah, but he's not all religious and weird. It's another guy. Oh he's not. Oh I thought it was him. No, No, I think I know who you're talking about, and I just can't remember his name right now. It's not him. I know that for a fact. Unless I'm wrong, then I don't know that Kirk Cameron. It just popped up in my head. You're talking about Kirk Cameron. No, you're probably I am right, Donny, stop even looking it up. Kirk Cameron is the one that used to be. I don't know if he was on that show or another show, but he's like all low weird or religious now just like his that must yeah, you're right, you're right, Okay. Anyway, Yeah, he's the cannaper abuser in this lifetime movie. And she did say about this that she found it healing to get her story out on her own terms. But apparently Ben Savage like ruined the movie and he can act. That's what the reviews of the movie are. I mean, it's a Lifetime movie, what do we expect? But yeah, nonetheless, I am glad she got to tell her story in her own terms and not feel like somebody is king for her. Like you know that that is powerful and healing. That's powerful. Yeah. And then she went and that twenty twenty episode. It was the first time she spoke about it too, and again it was like all on her terms too. That's good, that's good. Yeah, yeah, because sometimes twenty twenty can be a little fucking shady. I know, I learned about them. We went to the Crime and Paranormal podcasts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because Sarah Turney talked about it, yes, yeah, and her and her keynote speech. Yeah, but yeah, that was the case of Abby Ernandez. Wow, well, thank you for sharing. Yes, before we go, do you have any spooky recommendations? I finished the audiobook by Gus what a no science name. Oh there's a thing between us. Oh yeah, in between us, That's what I finished. This thing between us? Oh what did I say? Yes? Between us? Oh my, this thing between us? And it was interesting. It was trippy, it was scary. It actually scared me. I guess I should pull up the synopsis, but I'm just tired and hungry, so let me just do that real quick because I already started talking about it. Load. Yeah, you know what's saying? Too long to load anyway. It's basically this guy who's grieving his wife that died, and before she died, like creepy things were happening to them, and then they keep happening after her death. So it was it was good listen. Kind of shorter on the shorter end for an audio, but it's a short book. Yeah. I read some reviews and some people felt like the second half was not really connected to the first half, like and I kind of agreed with that. It kind of took a turn like a why it didn't really bother me but I would agree that the first part was a lot different than the last parts. Interesting, I don't remember enough to agree or disagree. Like the first parts, you know, he talks a lot about his grief, the little things that were happening to them, and then like when he starts seeing that like wall thing, and then it turns out like into this huge, I don't know thing that has all these different components. And I'm saying it basically because I don't want to spoil, you know, right right, So for some people that felt like disconnected, which I would agree with, but it didn't bother me. If you get what I'm seeing, that makes sense. But I feel like if you weren't paying attention, you missed what happened at the end. And I had to ask Christina, like what happened? Yeah, And I was like I kind of remember this, but I had to look it up. Yeah, but be like sure it was good. Still, I still recommend it, And it's it's short. It's like you don't lose anything, so even if you don't like six hours and it's like two hundred and fifty pages less, So yeah, it's a quick read or listen, but yeah, it is fun. It's one of my favorite sad girl horror books. Yea, I love a sad girl horror book. Yeah, I would throw monstrilli and even I haven't read it, but the way you described it, I would think it fits in there, this one, this thing between us, and then the what was the other one said? Then it's different, but it is I think grief horror as well. And there's more, but yeah, yeah, it is worth a read for sure. Would you read it four out of five? Okay? Okay, that's that's all you have? Yes, okay. My speaking recommendation is a podcast I just found. Let me go to my listening history really quick. Okay. It's called Nightmares of the America's Indigenous Tales. Are you freaking serious? I told you about that fucking podcast? Oh oh well, I finally listened. Wow when did you tell me about it? We make sure it's the same one. It's like two brothers. Yes, no, I don't think they're brothers. They're brothers. I thought they have Yeah, it says here Joseph and Gabriel be Hill. Oh, because they have another podcast. But it's also so this one is literally the same one I fucking told you about. Oh my God. And I think I told you about it more than once, because I I think I talked about it when I oh, when I was talking about the when I as a speaker recommendation, I talked about Killers of the Flower Moon's right, and they have a series on that. And then I don't know if it's during that same episode or a different one, but I was like, I was telling you that they also cover some like Latin American legends because you know, connected and usually to indigenous folklore, and and I like they talk about they talk about Yes, I did tell you about the ship. Yes, you're right. It's a good it is. It's a good podcast. And then the so this is two of the siblings, and they have another one where it's three. Now that I didn't know. I only knew about Night amer Americas. And of course it's like not coming up. It's like Terror on Brew I think is the name of it true? Oh? Sorry, okay, it's true Terror on tap. Oh that's very close. And that's three other brothers. And here they all three other brothers. I mean here they talk about more like also true crime and different kind of things. Robert the Dall, the Dead Love Past incident, interesting I didn't know the vampires. Yeah, so this one's a little more like broader but still creepy, like creepy stories. It's funny they have too, because it's easily could have been the same one. But the other one is more like indigenous stories straight up. And it's not all horror like you said, they have an episode on yeah, but it's like native focused. Yes, yes, it is, like so many interesting topics, yan, the you, no Mummy, people of the Rainforest, Like I'm adding everything to make you. Three parts on Alclatraz, No, four parts on Alcatraz, all almost an hour long, like so many stories, and like I already listened to a couple of other episodes and like I'm like, oh, yeah, of our listeners like us, they're gonna like them, they're like us. Yeah, I should reach out to them, see if they want to do an episode with us. That would be fun. But yeah, that is my speaking recommendation. The Indigenous or sorry Nightmare oh my god said the name ones. Yes, thank you, Nightmare of America's Indigenous Tales. Okay, so we're done now right, Yeah, sorry, Car is hungry, she's hungry, she she needs to go. Yes, yeah, so yeah, stay and Spooky. We'll catch everyone next time. By the time this is out, we will be preparing for our trip to Mexico, so that's exciting. And if you want to catch ours logs from that trip, assuming we make it, they're alive because we have to get on a plane from the US to Mexico. So pray for you. Knows if you pray, we'll have some yeah, some content on Patreon for that if you want to check that out. And yeah, we'll go now because Carmen is dying, all right, stay Spookie and we'll catch everyone next time. My Booktels is hosted by Christina and Carmen, produced and edited by Christina, researched by Christina Carmen and with the help of Don shout out with Don. If you aren't joying the podcast considerably, going to say five star review, we would really appreciate it. If you don't want to the professor review, just don't leave a review, but don't leave anything lower than that, please, I'm just kidding. You can reach out to the podcast at a Spoakatos at gmail dot com. You can go to our website at bookitos dot com and fill out the contact form. If you want to support the podcast, you can join our Patreon where we send exclusive stickers, have bonus episodes. Eight dollar members get an exclusive key chain. It's super cool. I got new ones and these ones are huge. And if you want to support, but you can or don't want to join the Patreon, that's fine too. You can also get some merch. You can find Shirret Says say a Spooky and old English letters. There's a beanie. I love the beanie. There's also a hat. There's a no Mamus shirt which is a fan favorite. There's a lot of options, crap tops, sweaters, it's almost swetter weather. We're nearing a Spookie season, so yeah, get your hoodies. You're gonna need them. If you don't want to do all that, that's fine too. You can just listen like you're listening now, and that's the best support that you can give us, like I always say in our ad break and yeah, if you like history, you can follow Estoria's Unknown Mining, Carmen's other podcasts, and you can find a Spooky taels on all of our socials at Spooky Tells All. This is in the show notes and we appreciate every single listen. Thank you, so much stay as spooky