The Case of Ariadna Lopez

Hello, Hello, this is Christina and Carmen and this is another episode of a Spooky Tells, the podcast for all things spooky, haunted, places, myths, legends, and true crime in Latin America. And today is just a true crime case. As you know, it is now March, and at the time of recording, it will soon be March eighth, International Women's Day, when thousands and thousands of women across Latin America wear purple and march for justice, women's rights, quality, the end of femicide. Yes, and so in March we seek out cases of femicide to highlight and bring attention to and that's what we're doing today. So on the first of November, JATOs Ricardo and a friend were cycling from Sidad de Mexico heading south to de Postelan, which is eighty two point eight kilometers away in Morelos. As they road, they turned off the regular road the highway for a break just before reaching de Postelan, and there there was an abrupt change in the mood in the trip because under a bridge in the highway, in the undergrowth, they found the body of a woman. Oh my god, she was wearing a beige dress. It was hiked up above her waist. She was missing one of her shoes, and her long hair was in braids. She had no idea on her. They then alerted the authorities, but Ricardo was worried that this would just be dismissed and nothing would come of it. They wouldn't even try to figure out who she was. So he took pictures with his phone, pictures of her and then of her tattoos. She had a little dinosaur tattoo, send flower tattoo, a tattoo of a name. He also took pictures of the necklace she was wearing that had a heart and a peace sign on it. A couple of days went by and he decided to post the pictures, but he cropped them out of respect. So yeah, not to straight up show her, but just something that would someone would recognize her hopefully. When he posted the pictures online, he wrote share please. I don't want her to end up in a common grave. And this is how the family and friends of twenty seven year old Ariadna Fernanda Lopez Dias found out why she had not been answering their calls or messages for over twenty four hours. What a terrible way to find out. Truly, it was her best friend and roommate who recognized who saw the pictures as she was squirreling and recognized the tattoo that read Aramita, which was Ariadna's mom name. But before getting into what happened once she was found, and of course, the hours leading up to her death, let's talk about her. Ariadna was born on July fifth, nineteen ninety five, in Mexico City. She was the youngest of five siblings. From childhood, she was described as an adventures huge extrovert with contagious energy. She was funny, joyful, She loved music. She left to sing and dance. She had a big heart and big dreams. At twenty, she became a single mother and absolutely loved her son. That little dinosaur tattoo that she got was of his favorite dinosaur. Oh mother. He didn't come easy to her, but her mom was there for her to help and to guide her. But suddenly, in twenty eighteen, Ariadna's mom passed away from breast cancer. Oh no, her support, yes, her everything, aside from her son obviously, you know, her help, her support. This is where everything fell apart from her because her mom, like we just said. Wasn't just like emotionally there for her, but also financially. She lived with her and apparently it was the only reason her half siblings like tatter her in their lives, because after her mom passed away, they kicked out Ariadna and her son out of the house. Oh my god, how can you do that? It doesn't make sense to me. I don't know some people are like that. No, yeah, they just changed the locks one day with no warning or anything. She tried to get in and found that she couldn't, damn, And so then she moved in with her best friend. But she kept dreaming. She worked two jobs to save up and make her dream happened, which was to move to Kangun with her son. They could wake up every morning start the ocean, and just she wanted to give her son a better life. Her first job was in the mornings, she was a beautician, and her second job was a waitress in an American style sports bar slash restaurant. At this job, she earned a commission for sharing drinks with clients. All the waitresses and commissions. That sounds like that shouldn't be a thing. No, right. It was at this job that she met Vanessa Flores, another waitress, and a client named Rautel. As to the Yoga Siam, twenty year old Vanessa Flores was her cowork grandfriend. But a few months before Ariadna went missing, Vanessa had quit her waitressing job because Rautel had offered to pay her the same money she was making, but in cash to work for him or to be with him. To be with him, Oh yeah wow. Roted was a well known client. He was hard to ignore. He lived a flashy lifestyle and came from a very well to do family from Morelos. When asked what he did for a living, he told everyone he was a customs agent, but he had a driver for his art trucks, at least two security guards, and had a fancy apartment in Mexico City. He had several affairs with different watresses of this restaurant, Sixties Bar and Rock, where Vanessa and Adrianna both worked. On a normal night, he would spend eighty thousand bezzels, which is around four thousand, five hundred and sixteen dollars, and people talked about one time that he spent one hundred and fifty thousand pestles, which is around eight thousand, four hundred sixty seven USD. That's wild. Yeah. His place was just a few blocks away from Sixties, and even though he was there several times a week, none of the waitresses wanted to serve him. He had reputation. Most of the girls who left this table left in terrible conditions, though I could not find exactly in what way, but one of the employees told this to advayise anonymously, just that the girls left that table in terrible conditions, probably held a drunk from him buying them drinks or something. I don't know. I guess we're just speculating here, right. But because he was rich and that's sorry one thing I forgot to mention though, So he would tell people he was a customs agent, but his family owned like six very well to do businesses in different like sectors. It probably didn't even work. And he had two or three businesses also under his name. Oh so they were super rich. But yeah, because like having security guards and armored trucks doesn't really line up to mean a customs agent. Yeah to me, no, But because he was rich and at sixties, the employees were encouraged to drink with clients and earned commissions for it, there was always someone to serve him. He often encouraged whoever was serving him to continue the party at his place, which is how Arianna came to know both Routel and Vanessa, whom she considered friends. The day before she stopped answering her friends and family on tour thirtieth, she was hanging out with rout Deel and Vanessa and four others. This, of course, wasn't discovered right away. It appears that the day after the cyclists found her body, fifteen friends and family went down to La Fiscalia in Morelos to talk with the authorities and to officially identify her. They knew that just before she stopped replying, Ariana said she had been hanging out with it rout Del, Vanessa and others. So a couple of days after the cyclists posted the pictures, the family went down to Guernavacas, Morellos. They waited at the morgue for hours until the attendant brought them blurry images of Idanna. Then her father confirmed their identity. From there, the group of fifteen went down to the prosecutor's office, but at the prosecutor's office they were treated like suspects themselves. This is so common, too common to common everywhere. Yeah, almost every story we've talked about, case we talked about where a family member has been murdered, at some point, the family is looked at as aspects, even here in the US. I was gonna say, and that's not just Mexico, not just Latin America, here in the US, because it makes me think of the women who went missing in Utah, right, Yeah, and the uncles were suspected. Yeah. So yeah, it's just like it's endless. I mean, I can see why, because a lot of times it is relatives and closed ones that true true harm their loved ones. But yeah, it's still it seems like excessive. Yeah, the investigators were hostile. They took Sarah Ariatna's roommate and best friend. They took her cell phone as well as their other roommate's cell phone, and they were the ones who had text messages from her stating she was with Routel and his girlfriend before she went missing. The investigators kept their phones for fifteen days, and speaking of Routhel and his girlfriend, Vanessa, they showed up at the prosecutor's office and they noticed the e in which doubted, moved around at the office said, I even posted a TikTok about this. Really, she's like, as you know, my friend, she was found deceased and we were called to or we went down to Morelos to talk with the prosecution or the attorney General's office there, and we were treated terribly. But when Rautel and Vanessa came in, they were like buddy buddies, Like he just walked around like he knew everyone, yeah and yeah. So he was treated kindly and so were his friends, very differently from how Arianna's friends the family were treated. Some hours after that, the family was finally allowed to retrieve Idianna's body. This is when they noticed several bruises that made it seem like she had been subjected to some very recent attack. They decided to go to Mexico City's prosecutor because the Morrelo's prosecutor had already told them her blood alcohol levels were the reason she died. That she he choked to death in her own vomit because she had been so drunk. Her blood alcohol level had been point four NY eight, which is six times legal limit for US drivers and can be deadly. But the family felt that this didn't explain the bruises they were seeing, and they were right because it doesn't right, like, even if she did have that level of intoxication, where did she get those bruises from? Yeah? Yeah, So they decided to take this to the Mexico City prosecution office. This was not an easy decision. They knew they were going to be going after a well connected, very rich man by pursuing this, and that was based on him literally being the last person having seen her alive. Yeah. Yeah. They left the Morela's Prosecution office and went back to Mexico City where they held the wake. At the weak, Arianna's niece spoke as if she were Arianna herself, saying, I love to enjoy life until they took me away. Some people who passed below a bridge on the Quadla Highway found me lifeless, tossed away and forgotten like I was nothing man. That's rough. Yeah, and like the strength it takes to be up there and saying that about your Tia, I can't imagine. And because of the publicity her death received the press and several reporters showed up. Routel and Vanessa also showed up, and Routel had the audacity to talk to the press. He was asked about being the last one to see her, to which he responded saying that it was a fun time. They went to a restaurant, drank and went back to his place, and that everyone had been drinking. So he assumed at some point she left this apartment via taxi or uber, and that he didn't know anything else about her. He lost communication with her after she left. He also told the press, it's like she choose me for this, counting on me for everything. What the fuck is that? But yeah, no, what is that? For real? I really don't know why he said this? Like what he said this? Like why it feels like narciss stick Like yeah, yeah, like when murderers involve themselves in the investigations, that's what it feels like, right. Yeah, it's a weird, odd thing to say. And also to just show up, especially after the experience that they had at the Morrellos Attorney General's office where they saw him Watton and they were the family, friends and family were mistreated. So yeah, and the family knows that he was the last one to see her, and they know the family knows. Yeah. Wow. After the wake, Vanessa posted a picture of her with Arianna with the caption my precious addie. It's difficult to say goodbye, and more so knowing that you're passing was from a violent and cowardly act. I write to you with the heart turned to pieces, knowing that surely you fought until the end and there was no one to help you. This was on November three. The next day, on November fourth, the Morello State Prosecutor Uriel Carmona, who was apparently very close to Routel, held a press conference where he stated the autopsy determined Arianna had died from gave alcohol intoxication and that there were no signs of violence. But on November six, Mexico City's prosecutor released their own findings in which they stated Arianna had died of multiple trauma from an assault. They also announced that Vanessa had been arrested that same morning and that they're currently closing in on Daltel. Both are being charged with the femicide of Ariatna. Damn, yes and fucked that for from morrelos riea you bitch? No? And doesn't this make Routel at the wake just more insidious? Yeah? Also Vanessa's message, Yeah, it's like she knows. She knows she died in violent deathic she had a hand in it, right, and no one was there to help. And she why would she add that because she knows the truth. She knew the truth. That's just insane. It was like self snitching on herself. Well that doesn't make getting sense what I said, but you know, but like yeah, like she was like saying the truth. And unessentially it has a name like when there there's like a Freudian slip t Yeah, there you go, there you go. He turned himself into detectives in Novolone. It appeared he had been trying to flee Mexico. When Artell turned himself in on the morning of November seventh, he told the reporters he was innocent and that he didn't kill Arianna. In the afternoon of the seventh, Claudia Scheinbaum, the then mayor of Mexico City, gave a press conference where she laid out the case against out the land Vanessa. There are still images from security cameras at multiple sites. This layout of events went as follows. Arianna arrived at Fisher's, a seafood restaurant, a little after six pm on October thirtieth. She was seen arriving in their security cameras. She was wearing a long beige dress and wearing high top white sneakers. She is seen giving both Vanessa and Routhtel a hug. About an hour later, she left with the two of them and three others who were also there, and they were all seeing getting into a Routhel's black suv. All six are seen arriving at his building at seven fifteen pm, where they then take an elevator up to his apartment. Half an hour after that, the other three are seen leaving the building, while Ariana, Rothel and Vanessa are all stayed inside his place. The next morning, a bald man with the beard is seen no security footage carrying Ariana's body at this point, already stiff with rigor Mortis, through a hallway in this building and down to the garage. He's carrying her on his right shoulder and is seeing putting her in the back of a black suv. This man was identified as Routel Astudillo. He is seen driving away. In her press conference, Gladia Scheinbaum states this is when he then drove to Murellos and the Postlan and this wasn't just some baseless sentence. They proved he was there through his cell phone records. Yeah, he pinped the cell tower right by where she was found. Like, there's no denying this, And they had security footage they had like the evidence. They gathered it very fast, although evidence was there. Yeah. Yeah. Shinbaum also said that Raoute probably chose this specific location because he thought he could get away with it due to his friendship with Uriel Carmona, the Morrelo state prosecutor and who people had already seen him being b anybodies with, you know. And then she accused Uriel Carmona of trying to cover up the murder of Ariatna, and so she said they tried to blame the victim. Never again should a feminine be covered up and a woman smeared and victimized because they blamed her for her own death. And that's not all the evidence. There's still more evidence on top of what was already said, like all the video footage. They also had text messages between Vanessa and Rotel trying to get their stories lined up. They literally messaged each other like we need to make sure our stories match up because even before the family and friends went down to Morellos to identify her. Ariadna's roommates had been texting with Vanessa and like what she said, she was with you, And then Vanessa kept like changing the story, like whoa, she didn't want to stay. Oh, well, she didn't want to stay with you guys, because she says she had been in a fight with Sara. Oh but she and then she left and we don't know why. She just kept changing, yeah, making things up. Yeah. And so the roommate and friend were getting suspicious. Yeah. And in her own text, Vanessa's text tout dell, She's like, they're getting suspicious. We need to make sure we say the same thing. Wow. And it's like, oh, well, let's say we didn't see her leaving, Like it's a very obvious. Yeah. She even wrote to then telling him they needed quote a video or something end quote to prove that Ariadna had left the building alive, because quote words alone wouldn't do any good end quote. Wow. And a motive is still unclear, but both of them remain in custody pending trial on charges of femicide. And like, the charge of femicide is more serious than just the regular murder regular homicide, it's ten more years. And so like a normal murder is sixty years, right, like a full first degree murder is sixty years, and if convicted of a femicide, it's another ten years on top of that. Also, after the news conference held by Shinbaum about the case, it was announced that an investigation into Morellos's Attorney General's office had opened. Good Yes, and so on August fourth, twenty twenty three, Uriat Carmona was arrested good accused of obstructing the administration of justice in regards to the murder of Atriatna Lopez and also in twenty twenty three. But in January of that year, the Mexico City Attorney General's office confirmed that Ariadna Fernandal Lopez Lias was murdered by a blow to the head and did not die from bronco aspiration, which is what the Morellos Attorney General's office had declared, again trying to say she choked on her own vomit because she had been so drunk. Wow. In September twenty twenty three, a judge at the Reclusorio Norte prison determined that the evidence presented by the attorney General's office was sufficient to indict Rautel and that this justified his pre trial detention. So he was indicted, yes, officially, and he tried to twice since being arrested. Both appeals were dismissed because there was like no substance to the appeal, like nothing to back it up. Yeah. The last update I could find on this case is that a panel of judges denied Vanessa f Lotus's request for an injunction to cancel the proceedings against her for allegedly being a co perpetrator in the femicide of Ariadna Lopezzias, so meaning she will continue in jail until the trial, which from what I have found, there is no date for the trial yet. Damn. But they are both in jail, including Uriel the former prosecutor. Yeah, and hopefully the family and friends of Arianna get the justice they are seeking. Right after Ariadna was found dead, women took to the streets of Mexico City calling for justice, especially with the declaring of the or whatever the statement that Morelos had put out about Ariatna. People were calling to the streets. But luckily Mexico City was like the that Attorney General was like no and grale scheibaum was very like also on top of it, Yeah, there are proper investigation instead of just writing it off because it was Bessie's with the murder. Yeah, the hashtag who cisiapana Adi took off on social media. Hundreds of people protested in Mexico City and all over Mexico. At the protests in Mexico City, daniel A Diaz, a friend of Adi's, said Adi didn't die because of drinking alcohol. She was murdered. No woman should be killed and her reputation stained with people saying it was her fault. And the public outcry was huge. Worsened when two other cases happened literally around the same time, like within days of each other. The murder of a teacher are also found on the side of a road made people angry, damn and then the kidnapping of a twenty three year old woman who died trying to escape from the kidnapping vehicle, which was a taxi. She jumped out and she the injury she sustained from jumping out is how she died. All of these things happened like in the same week days within mm hm and so that yeah, made people even more angry, because, yeah, that's a lot, because of course one is femicide, violence against women going to stop until people take feminism seriously, that's when. Yeah, And if the family had not made the choice themselves to go to the Mexico City prosecutor Attorney General's office. I'm using these terms interchangeably in case anyone's wondering, like, right, and why do we keep saying what are the other They're the same thing for the purposes of this episode, because I mean, that's the same place, right, and so so, if they had not gone to them themselves, and if this had been another corrupt official who also agreed to dismiss the case, if Morelos had been talking the attorney general and Marlos had been talking to the one in Mexico City and was like, hey, let this one slide, like this would have been ignored, which happens, which happens. But no, they took it seriously. They did their jobs like what they're supposed to suppose to exactly. If it wasn't for that, it would be very, very possible that no one would be facing trial for the murder of femicide of Ariadna. Also, if the cyclists had not published the pictures, right, because her would her family have been able to identify her otherwise, Right. I feel like Morrelos would have just like swepped this under the rug because of Uriel and because he was besties with everythin exactly. And it's like she sent her her press conference. There's a reason he chose this location. And yeah, and so I feel like the cyclist is very vindicated in his choice to post the pictures, saying like, don't like, please share this so that she doesn't end up in a common grave because who knows otherwise. Yeah, And like I said at the top of the episode, this feels like a very timely case to cover because at the time of recording, International Women's Day is literally right around the corner, and on this day, thousands of women in Latin America take to the streets wearing purple, calling out gender violence, femicide, abuse, and so much more, sometimes damaging public property in the process, which who cares, Yes, I sees on formats mm hmmmm hm. But yeah, that was the case of Ariatna. Wow, it's just terrible, and it's terrible to know that it happened to two other women the same week. M h. And this isn't too like, I don't know, make Mexico look bad, like, well, that's gonna say too that sounds like should I just stop talking? But no, No. It reminded me the how the cyclist found her and took pictures and that helped get the case going and get her on you know, the family, on the path towards getting justice and for the murder to be held accountable murderers. It reminded me of here in the US. When did this I forgot when it happened, but you know, Chanelle Miller, the survivor of brock Turner, the rapist brock Turner, mm hmm. He got her drunk basically to the point where obviously you cannot consent if you're drunk, right, and then he assaulted her sexually. Mid assault. I don't remember if there were cyclists or runners, but there were foreign students, but someone saw yeah, yeah, they saw him and they stopped it. And if it wasn't for them, he would have kept going. And who knows if he would have left her there all night, yeah, passed out, just left her to die, like you know what I mean. And so yeah, it reminded me of the cyclist who came upon. Unfortunately Adana was already diseased when he found her. But it's because of people like the Cyclist and those people that found Chanelle and do the right thing, men who do the right thing, you know. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, it happens here in the United States too. Yeah, it was my whole point of that. Yeah. Yeah, And feminism is taken as them seriously here in the United States as it is in Mexico and Latin America. Like, I know that feminism has come a long way. I still remember back when I graduated from YUCI marced This was probably like twenty fourteen, and I did my training at like a women's shelter to be a what was it called a trauma advocate, But basically it was like a volunteer position to be on call for women who were victims of domestic violence or ceterral assault on like if they showed up at the hospital for help for those reasons, then the hospital would call you and you would go and inform them of the services available to them and like support groups, counseling, like different things like that. And during that training, and it was a feminist movement that made shelters like this possible, but I still remember during my training, one of the women that was doing the training was like, who here is a feminist And nobody, I think except me raised raise their hands and she was asking why why not? Why didn't you raise your hands? This is feminist work. Yeah, fighting domestic violence, gender violence, that is feminism. That's feminist work. And people, we were all women there, I think there was one guy, but like they were the saying things like, oh, like feminism has like a bad has a stigma to it. All those are women who burn bras, Like who cares if they burn bras? First of all, they're hairy, ugly women. Oh they're just man haters. And it's like no, and they're still you know what. That's the other issue with like, I don't know the way sometimes white feminism takes the uh what am I trying to say? It takes a spotlight. It's what is like cover the most and so it's what people are seeing. And then obviously it has its flaws. It's not intersectional and so, but that's not the issue people have with it. The issue with if people kind of even accept surface level white feminism, then intersectional feminism is far away, like that's the goal always, but the fact that they can't even they can't even accept capitalists, yeah, or versions of feminism which are not real feminism. It's so interesting to me to see the difference between international women's marches in Latin America as opposed to the United States. We're here, they're wearing these pink vagina hats and it's like, Okay, you have a vagina hat. Call for something meaningful, and it's like, I don't know. And the stark difference in Latin America where I will never forget it was it twenty twenty or twenty twenty, and here I am forgetting that. I will never forget what was twenty twenty one when it got real like violent in Mexico City and people were like laughing about it on social media, like look at these women, but it's like, no, there's a reason they're out there. This what happened to Ariadna. The same week, two other women were found or were killed, and it's a it's a very real, real situation. That's just like people dismiss until it's something that happens to someone they know, and it's that's not enough. And even then they'll sometimes find ways to blame the women. Yeah, and I think of, like, I don't know, more people should be out there joining and supporting these women, like I'll never freak. We already we've covered these cases like Esmerela and how her father first was like he felt weird about going to these marches, but he went anyway, and he like, I'm gonna cry talking about it. I already already have chills. They I know, I'm me too. They embraced me. The women embraced me, and I didn't want to like take the spilette from them, but they yelled out my daughter's name and said like because you know people always say like Una, she's not here, where is she? And he he's embraced by these women, and they're not just out here marching for her, it's for everyone that has been going through this. And it just like there's too many. It's that's I mean, it's like literally this opens exist because yeah, you're not mass right, like these are these are things like I wish there was a similar movement here in the US. And that doesn't mean like like on that day, I will one hundred percent like go look for like a movement to join. I know there's like a run club or bike club is hosting like a bike thing for women that day, and it's like Latin a led So I'll probably do that, but I don't know it just like it needs to stop. Yeah, and it's yeah, that brings me back to the to the point or to emphasize that things are not going to change. Gender violence and violence against women and children is not going to change until feminism again is taken seriously because the patriarchy normalizes, encourages violence against women and children because women and children are viewed as objects that you can treat however you want, right because they're not human beings. The patriarchy. A part of that is organized religion. I'm sorry to say, no, it is, and it affects everyone. It's like it's not good for everyone, and that includes men. Yeah. So but yeah, we're gonna be highlighting cases like this all month. And yeah, so just one more thing. This also because we're talking about Mexico and we're talking about Latin America, so a lot of the femicides that we cover end up being in Latin America. And like you said already, that's not to say this doesn't happen in the United States, right, something that's been going on since what it's been over a decade already, Epstein, the Epstein Files, right, Yeah, and a man like Epstein and a trafficking ring like Epstein's, the Epstein was operating. It doesn't happen in a world where women and girls and children are respected and treated as equals, exactly. And so like we see peopleeople talking about Epstein Files, and some people what's the word I'm looking for, their sensationalizing it. They're getting views because they're talking about all these conspiracies like children being eaten, when we need to be talking about feminism, and we need to be talking about how in a world where feminism is respected, where women and children are respected, then people like Epstein don't happen. Men don't abuse women and children, they don't traffic women and children. Yeah, and so yeah, on the listen to this, but don't you know stop there on International women say do something. I don't know, read some feminist theory, but like real feminist theory. I hate what that day has become and have already ranted on and on, but yeah here on other episodes in March, yeah I have, but yeah, here in United States has become akin to a second Mother's Day, which, first of there's already a day for others. It's a mother's Day, not all women or mothers. Okay, let me start there. No shade to the mothers out there, of course. But International Women's Day is not about buying the woman in your life flowers and something on celle at some freaking store, you know what I mean. It's about standing up against femicides, against abuse, against gender violence. So do something supporting those actions on International Women's Day. And this is I think where we will end the episode. Yeah, all right, we'll catch everyone next time. Bye Bye. As Book Tells is hosted by Christina and Carmen, produced and edited by Christina, researched by Christina Carmen and with the help of Don Shout out with Don. If you're enjoying the podcast considerably, going to say five star review, we would really appreciate it. If you don't want to them afesstar review, just don't leave a review, but don't leave anything lower than that, please, I'm just kidding. You can reach out to the podcast at a Spooktols at gmail dot com. You can go to our website at pookitos dot com and fill out the contact form. If you want to support the podcast, you can join our Patreon where we send exclusive stickers, have bonus episodes. Eight dollar members get an exclusive keychain. It's super cool. I got new ones and these ones are huge. And if you want to support, but you can or don't want to join the Patreon, that's fine too. You can also get some merch. You can find shrew says say a Spooky and old English letters. There's a beanie. I love the beanie. There's also a hat. There's a no Mamus shirt, which is a fan favorite. There's a lot of options, crap tops, sweaters. It's almost wetter weather. We're nearing a Spookie season, so yeah, get your hoodies. You're gonna need them. If you don't want to do all that, that's fine too. You can just listen like you're listening now, and that's the best support that you can give us, like I always say in our ad break and yeah, if you like history, you can follow Estodia's Unknown Mining, Carmen's other podcasts, and you can find as booky tels on all of our socials at a Spooky tells All. This is in the show notes, and we appreciate every single listen. Thank you so much. Stay a spooky