The Exorcism of VIlma Trujillo

Hello, Hello, this is Christina and Carmen and this is another episode of Spooky Tells, a podcast for all things spooky true crime in Latin America. And we're back. Bebe. I was gonna say baby, but then maybe I should have said babe. I don't know. It's too late now, yeah it is. It is, you said, wen, And that's the take we're going with them anyway. Yeah, we're back after our break. I I'm almost done moving. I have unearthed my mic. Okay, I think we've yapped about enough. Yeah that's for a patron. If you are not a patron, you missed our episode, our yapp session. Okay, So on today's episode, I have to warn everyone. It is a tough one. The name. It's like, oh, it's just like a scary story, and then it's like, no, it's just terrible. Yeah. Oh you thought this was paranormal. It's actually probably terrible, violence, sexism, and I don't know what else. Yeah. Yeah, we are talking about the exorcism of vilmatru Jigo. But before that, we took first yes, but sorry, no you got excited. It's okay, I did, I did, But first a listener story and if you have a story that you want to send us. There are so many ways to get to us. You can email a spooky to dos at gmail dot com. You can DM us on any of our socials, you can call the Espooky Hotline, or you can submit it on Discord like this person did. And I don't know if they wanted their user name shared. I don't remember, so I might have not copied it down. But thanks so much for submitting it on Discord. You know who you are. Yeah, I don't think you included it, but they know who they are. They do, okay, and thank you listener. Here goes. I didn't know that I was gifted, as in I could feel spooky shit until this event when I was a teenager, and then my mom told me, oh, yeah, you were super sensitive as a kid, blah blah. So I guess this incident just made me realize. We were at a beach resort with our friends in Indonesia, and from the moment we got there, my mom was like dawie dabie poe, which is like excuse me in Tagalog. We also use it when we think that there are paranormal things around and we're trying to be respectful. I even made a comment to my mom telling her that the spirits probably didn't understand her. But I should have seen that as a sign, because my also sensitive mom felt something. We spent the day having fun at the beach, but some weird stuff happened, like when some of our friends took pictures in the room where all the girls, including me would sleep in, they saw skuls and their photos m mmmm, which we laughed off as the trick of a like girl. Someone swore that they saw a face in the trees, but she thinks that she was just tired from all the swimming and was hallucinating. A common side effect of swimming is seen. No, a common side effect of fatigue is hosting because I've been there, but skulls, you were hastening skulls. Okay, let's pause here for a moment. And basic training. When we had to do the last like long ass fucking rock march after they purposely didn't let us sleep, which is not something they're supposed to do. That's not sure. Yeah, basically, at least a couple of girls. I remember towards the end of the march, we were all dying and someone swore they saw shadows in the trees like it is very common. Yeah, okay, back to the story. And then my friend's grandma said, so, I saw step Ember go into the girls room, but when I ran to him to ask him why he was checking their room, and there was nobody there. Oh. We were all kind of freaked out, especially after the last event, but we all watched Andrew Lloyd Webber movies to distress and fall asleep. Anyway, we ended the night on the Phantom of the Opera, not relevant to story. That's what they wrote. I love that. I'll mentioned that because I love these details. I will say their brain works like our brain. Yes, the Phantom of the Opera not really something distressing. It's kind of like stressful to watch being tortured. I mean, I love, I do like the movie, but like it's not a relaxing watch. Yeah to somen So we all retired to our beds, expecting a good night's sleep and another fun day at the beach tomorrow. But nobody in my room got good sleep. Someone dreamt of demons, my sister heard knocking on her head rest, only to wake up to find nobody there. And I woke up to find someone pulling my blankets. M mmm, and I thought someone was messing with me, so I turned the light on, expecting to beret someone. But my blankets were moving and nobody was pulling it, at least from what I could see. I know I was awake because I was saying the Lord's Prayer over and over again until whatever it was stop pulling my blankets. They needed to make sure they were dreaming. Yeah, when the coast was clear and I stopped freaking out, I then went to my sister's bed and forced her to make space for me to crawl. She was okay with it because it made her bed less scary, but she didn't tell me about what she experienced until morning, so they were both scared because imagine she went in there to feel better. She's like, Yeah, someone would knocking here, like all night. When we woke up the next day and traded stories, we realized that this resort could actually be haunted. So instead of staying for two nights, we left after having breakfast. These people would survived the scary movie. Yes, they would have survived. Everyone in the resort villa minus my mom and dad, experienced some spooky shit, but I chucked it up to my mom, saying Tabi Tabi pole, which I found strange at first, but I guess the spooks thought she was being respectful and didn't bother her, even if I thought the Indonesian ghostis didn't speak a Filipino language, which turns out they did. What if tai po is universal oversall? Yeah, yeah, I think they understood the spirit of the gesture behind it. Yes, yeah, this was the start of my sister and I having other paranormal experiences since we realized that we were gifted, which I guess was given because both of our parents are also sensitive. But this was also the biggest thing that had happened. So this is a story I decided to tell. Well, tell us the rest of them. Well, if you have more, please, and then they just end the paragraph by saying, anyway, I love hearing your spooky stories. Okay, and yes, thank you again for saying that in And if you have any more stories, does send in because send them our way because you're gifted. So yeah, send them our away, okay, And we'll take a little break here, then we'll be back with my very depressing story. And we're back, and so again, this is the Exorcism of Wilma Trujillo and I want to say it was a couple of years back that we did a little mini series on exorcisms, and we had like one super creepy exorcism story that was like purely paranormal, and then we had like another depressing US episode where it was like, these are exorcisms, but really they're like true crime cases where these people were killed in the name of exorcisms. Yeah, and that's the thing about exorcisms, you know, they're dangerous, not in the spooky sense. Oh no, not in the spooky sense. Like now, within the Catholic Church today, there's very specific rules, which MJ went over when we did that series. These rules go out of the window when you leave these very strict guidelines of the Catholic Church. And that's as you say, it doesn't like whenever they're not approved and very specific, then yeah, that's when things are like anything's for game to them a little more risky, yes, exactly. And today's case is one of those. So it's not a parable case where it's like you're gonna listen to him like, oh that was scary. No, this is fucking depressing. This takes place in Nicaragua and If you guess that there's an evangelical church involved, you guess right. Twenty five year old Vitma Trujillo Garcia was the mother of two, a wife, a sister, and a friend. Her husband provided for the family, but she also made her own money selling artisanal goods. She sold cheese, banda mayis, and candies. And her favorite candies were kahitas it goco, which are coca flakes with caramel and frescos aros. And I believe these are like flavored or chatnas. Oh that makes sense. It is a rice drink. Yeah. And she would wake up before sunrise every day to prepare her goods to sell to her community. El Corte Sal in the municipality of Rosita, and there's also a town Rosita and Rosita and Rosita. The town is four hundred and eighty kilometers away from the capital of Nicaragua, which is Managua. And this area has a long history of exploitation by mining companies. It's very remote, with an unemployment rate of eighty percent. Oh wow. And Elcrtasal is even more remote than Rosita. It can hardly be called the pueblo. It doesn't show up on a map. To reach El Corte Sal from Rosita, you have to drive rugged roads on a four by four vehicle for two hours, and then four hours on a mule, and then another four hours walking through jungles and mountains. Damn. Yeah, that's how remote this is. There's no schools there, there's no doctors, no podable water, no police department, nothing, just you know. Obviously, the people who live there like their homesteads, small farmland. That reminds me of the movie that we watched at the remember the Oh yes, they were in the mountains. Yes, actually that sounds very like a very remote like village. I guess you would call it like smaller than Yes, that sounds very similar, very similar. Because also this that place only had a church basically, and this place also only has a church. It's never good, no, So yeah, the homesteads, which in between those there was like small farmland which mostly grew beans. Then there was a couple of small radios for listening to religious services in the area Cortasal and then an evangelical church, and that evangelical church was Vision Celestial or Celestial Vision in English. And so this is the setting in which Vilma finds herself when the exorcism would take place. But before that happened, things were mostly fine. By all accounts, Vilma Trujillo was kind, loving, caring and funny. But when her mom passed away from cancer, Vilima had a crisis in a faith understandable right, A common a common occurrence. Yeah. While the rest of her family remained a Catholic, she and her younger sister converted into Evangelism and joined the Celestial Vision Church. I don't want to talk about a specific branch of Christianity, but it's so common to be preyed upon by the evangelical church when you are in the moment of crisis. And I have seen it myself with people that were Catholic beforehand. Not to say one is better than the other, although in these times whatever, I think it's fine to say, no, I'm just kidding, but yeah, I mean I seen it myself or someone you know, they had a crisis happen, and I've seen it in real life. Then, of course the many accounts online and stuff where you know they're going to through probably the most stressful times of their lives, and they unfortunately find the imagical church well and we've said this. I think we've said it more on estorias are known. It's possible that it has come up and Spooky tells too though, But like it's not false to say that the Evangelical Church does prey upon people, but also it's so important for people to know or to be aware of their The reason they have grown so much in Latin America is because of CIA, Because, yeah, Libertian theology was growing as a movement, which is where like you know, Catholics like Saint oscarro Meto were really really preaching about giving to the poor, about the real things that you're supposed to care about as a religious Catholic person, like Jesus, right, So that was a growing movement, and in order to stop that growing movement, they funded and inserted this evangelical movement into Latin America. And now in so many places that were formally Catholic, the majority church is Evangelical. And that's actually also the case here, which I'm sure Elkotasan was largely Catholic until recently when half the population had converted to the Emagelical Church. So when she joined this church, her husband noticed a change. She started to talk more about demons and how they were attacking her, something she never used to say. And you know what, that's such a common thing. I think they call it spiritual psychosis when it's extreme, but it's more of a thing in these evangelical and extreme fundamental Christian spaces than your regular role Catholic Saturday church going. Well, it's encouraged. It's encouraged, yeah, to say like, oh, I'm being spiritually attacked and things like that, to the point where people were making videos in the super Bowl that it was it was a demonic message from Kendrick Lamar, a spirituitual attack on Christian America, And I'm like, really, you're reading into this like of course are wild? Also like if you look at him, because we also did the episode on the what was it called oh Laluce Yes, lal Mundo, Yeah, when there's a whole like YouTube page that kid or was it Reddit. I don't remember interviews of people leaving La lucea Mundo because it literally is a cult like as we talked about in that episode, But there's people who talk about their experience in La Luce Mundo and they talk about like having been forced or encouraged to feel like they were being spiritually overwhelmed in a certain moment, and to like convulse and shake to get out of these like hours long sessions of confessions and things like that. So yeah, this is a very common common thing. He also felt like she was starting to pick more fights with him, especially after coming back home from church services, which was also unlike her. All of this really rammed up. In February of twenty seventeen, Vilma began to talk more about demons. She walked into her sister Madeleine's small house, and while Madelene gave her the usual high, something was wrong. Milma was walking all wobbly. She was knocking things over. She didn't look right. Her white part of her eyes as Clara, looked yellow, and her lips were super dry. When she finally spoke, she did not say hi, and her voice was dry and raspy. She told her sister, Madelene, do you know you won't give birth to a baby but to a serpent? Yikes. Then she fell to her knees began to cry and scream about the devil. Her sister had never seen her like this. Then Vilman began to hallucinate and talk to herself. They had already gone to the local cournandero, who gave her something to drink. They didn't know what this was, but she seemed the worse since she began to take it. Her husband tried to ask her to stop drinking it, but there was no reasoning with her. Her family knew she needed help, but it would take them a whole day to reach a doctor, so instead they reached out to a twenty three year old Juan Rocha, the young pastor from Celestial Vicion de la Samblea de Dios, the evangelical church, which he himself had not been a pastor of for very long. He had grown up in the area, was the son of a farmer and one of the more educated members of the community, having graduated fourth grade. It's unclear when or why he declared himself pastor of the church, but many went with it because of his education, so he agreed to go see her. He arrived to her home on the fifteenth of February of twenty seventeen and said, Milimasta and de Moniela vilma sita se liberada del mar klaiechocao vima is possessed. She needs to be freed from the evil that has caused her to fall into sin. He and his followers invited Vilma to follow them to a Templo Vistan. Vilma and her family were desperate, and they accepted. They walked for an hour along muddy paths until they reached the church on a secluded hillside. I'm just thinking of that movie you watched. Honestly, I wish I could remember the name of the movie. I know me too. I only remember the Hour of Blood, and I remember the name of the other one. Shaman is the movie we're talking about, and I think if you watch it, you can get an idea of what this place looks like, even though Shaman takes place in Peru. But you talked about mountains in jungle, right like that they had to walk through sa Yes, yes, that's why it's very much, very similar. Yeah. Vilma entered Juandrocha's small home in front of the church and recognized the others Pedro Jose, the young pastor's brother, Domasa, their sister, and Franklin Hadkin, Domasa's husband, all members and leaders within the small evangelical church. Bilma's father, Catalino, asked if he could stay with his sister Pajuan Rocha told her no, to go home and pray that's where he would be of service. They closed the door and tied her to a bed. Then four days they deprived her of food and water while the four recided prayers. Just second, when you're when you're worthholding food and like water from someone that's not that's torture, that's not like what rules are They're just making everything up as they go. They're making it up as they go. Yeah. Yeah. Throughout those days, Wilma's family tried knocking to see her, but they would be turned away, always told the same thing, she's not yet cured. After five days of being tied alone, away from her family, without food or water or her clothes, Vilma rebeled she had gone willingly, but the demons she had been experiencing were nothing compared to this. She's like, I'd rather be in the moniella. Honestly, she began to yell, this can't be my destiny. I'm hungry, I'm cold. This is not a cure, this is a punishment. On the fifth night, once the young pastor had left and she was on her own in the small room, she drank herself as far as her restraints would let her. Then with her feet she reached for a machette that was in the corner of the room. She cut the ropes off, grabbed the machette and ran out. She was swinging it in the air, telling them no more and to let her free. But the congregation was stronger than her and she was outnumbered. They overpowered her, and now they were sure she was possessed. That's like their proof. Now, how is that? Your response, like, you're not feeding her, you're not, you're not, You're repressing her in the most inhumane way. Of course, she's gonna fucking swing a machetta at you. Anyone would. Yeah, yeah, if this is how she reacted to help from God, of course she was possessed. Ridiculous very. As the men dragged her back to the room, the pastor stood next to her and whispered, magnana magna tolsto tomorrow, God will save you. Tomorrow, this will all be over. Oh my god, he's planning a killer, isn't he. That's so ominous, Like what an honest thing to say? Sounds like a threat, That doesn't sound like what that's supposed to be. Comfort to confirming. Wow, I can't comforting. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm forgetting how to talk. Wow. Yeah, we don't record for two weeks. You know what. It was all the fatigue from moving and then I got sick immediately after. I see it. I see it, yeah, be m. I had no idea what the pastor was referring to, but it turns out that Juan Da had a divine revelation on the sixth night. He told the congregation. This divine revelation, the demons could be expelled through the flames. She will only be free from this evil if we purify her in fire. What the fuck? That's again, They're just like making shit up as they go. I'm trying to think of the most like depraved shit, Like that's crazy, that's what happens in these bass. Yes, absolutely don't have compassion for her, he said, because this is the devil we're talking about. She must burn from toes to head. She will die, but she will resussitate free from her torment. I'm sorry, what the hell? Yeah, And this is like the case that we talked about, you know, when we did those yeah series of episodes, but like there was that crazy not sorry, crazy that's not correct. There was that lady who was a club I'm finding for my life to not say crazy episode. I'm like, this is fucking crazy. It's hard, it's hard. Yeah. But this lady who you know, was not really she was like a co leader basically, but she was like exercising a boy and then like, oh, he'll risk us to state, he'll resusitate like after we're done, and no, they just like they killed him like he of course he didn't come back to life, like please. It also reminds me if you're in the US. I don't remember the state, probably somewhere in the midwest South, if I'm being honest, but I don't remember. In Texas, I don't remember, but there was this evangelical church that some members had their daughter I think it was, that died and then the pastor or whoever some leader kept like swearing like they had had some vision from God that she would come back to life and they just need to pray over her. Yeah, And they prayed over her for I don't know how long, and obviously she didn't come back to life, of course, and I don't remember what the outcome like if there was, I'm assuming there was some kind of criminal proceedings. That's why we learned about this later. But I don't remember exactly what happened after. Okay, back to the story. He ordered members to gather wood for the fire. In the meantime, Pedro Rocha and Franklin had been tied her down to a guava tree next to the fire pit that was being built. The members worked on this over the next four hours. Vilma had to watch this fire grow until maybe out of losing patients or who knows what, she was thrown into the flames by the paser. Oh my god. Well, to this day, it's not clear she was pushed into the fire or if the fire had grown so much that it engulfed her. Either way, horrible. Yeah. Kuandrocha claims that Vilma levitated herself and fell into the fire. Juan, I'm gonna need you to shut the fuck up. No Ena will fite you personally, doesn't watch that she burned her fifteen year old sister, who had been there the whole time because she was a member of the church too. Could hear as her sister cried out again and again, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. She had been inside the church praying, and though maybe she smelled the fire, she had no idea that her sister was going to be burned alive. She listened in shock and frozen fear as the leaders of her church repeatedly yelled that her sister would soon resurrect free from the demons. She managed to break free from the congregation and ran to her tia Anhela's house an hour away. Right, that's wild. Once she got to her tas she cried out, they burned her. They burned her. Her father, Catalino, her Thea, and her cousin all followed her back to the church as fast as he could. It was midday. By the time they had arrived. The last of the flames were still flickering, and they found Vilma behind the church, naked and with burns covering eighty percent of her body. She's so alive. Wow. She asked for water. Catalino and his nephew carried Vilma in their arms back to her ta Anhila's house, again an hour away. Oh my gosh. There they called for more family members, cousins, siblings, and uncles. Together they made a stretcher from my hammock and two poles as they put this together, Vilma reassured her crying five year old son. She told him los pastorsitos me about these on the little pastors baptized me. Oh my god, I can't even imagine the trauma of this five year old. And also then in your brain cementing these two things together, your burned mother and baptism, yeap, oh my god. Also I forgot to put it in the notes. But these people waited basically because like her husband, she has two kids, right, one is the five year old, and then there's a younger daughter with her current husband. They waited until he and the younger daughter were gone visiting his mom because it was helping his mom get better. And they basically waited for that to happen to like do the worst of what they did. Oh wow, like it was when he was gone, that was gone. Let burn her, Oh my god. Once they made the stretcher, the family members took turns carrying her for twelve hours through rivers, muddy paths, and the rainforests. When they finally reached the hospital in Rosita, the doctors were shocked at the state of Vilma's body. They had to send her to the main hospital in Managua, but first she had to be taken to an airport twenty miles away from Rosita and then flown to the capitol. Sadly, by the time she arrived it was too late. Of course, all the time in the distance that they had to travel just to get there, and then she still needed more. The fact that she remained alive for so long after is it's wild yeah. Vilma Trujillo died on February twenty eight, twenty seventeen, from pulmonary edema because of the swelling from the burns. Her lungs were filling with blood, and she also had multiple organ failure. It's terrible, yeah. After her death, reports flooded into Rosita, where Juan Rocha and his brother were sitting in the back of a pickup truck. They were now in police custody. A reporter asked, why did you burn her? But Juandro insisted that the spirit lifted her up and she fell into the fire. While ju maintained this version of events, his brother in law, Franklin had Kin, also in police custody, claimed that Vilma had committed an error, that she had a life partner and she committed a mistake with another man. So is Franklin saying that Vilma cheated on her partner and that's why she became demonic. Yes, that's why she became possessed. Ok Moniamonia rapp is all you can open as a girl, the one prog com process you are now okay you I can all of them and the rectiva and what. A personal RECTI them. There's a quem h h is gonna practice a similar com maala. No no no no in the manalment and a super bient. People can as a car. You're following my attament and grander and can you come on a camera rap create okay, present that came persent you okay, yeah, that's a ut and the man will okay, then. Come young roll and for com comment yeah yeah you know and American themn MA man, yeah young okay. The number and. Come frankly Franklin. Franklin, put y you are by some. To mar. Does a person. Basically they're saying what we just said in Spanish. Okay. In reality, it's likely that Vilma had been raped by a man. This is all lleged, but could be what led to her mental breakdown, because this is alleged. It was never investigated, but there were rumors, but no one will ever know what was disturbing Vilma a week before her gruesome murder. The rumors, which can't be proven now, were that she had been drugged and raped by the local curandero, the very same one who was giving her the drink that her family believed was making her crazy, and that the church took this rape as adultery. Juandrocha Pedro, Jose Tomasa, Franklin Harkin, and the fifth congregation member, Esneeda Orosco were all charged with various things, including kidnapping and murder. The trial was held in Mana, and those who attended stated none of the five looked remorseful. Of course they didn't. Of course, God was on their side, according to them, exactly, Oh, that reminds me of this inferiiting phrase I read and the flower traveled in my blood? What I was or was someone else? It was either Videla or one of the other top military people. During one of their trials, said basically that they felt no remorse because God was on their side. Basically, it's what they said. Of course. On May ninth, the judge sentenced all five was thirty to thirty six years, stating they acted with treachery and abuse of confidence. The Assembly of God church has stated they did not have a pastor named Juandrocha and that the media began to use the word pastor, but Juan was more of a lay preacher, and although the Vision Telestian Church in El Cortstal was part of the Assemblies of God, it was not an organized church in Morelane, a potential future church, so clearly trying to distance themselves from the situation, trying to be like, oh no, that wasn't a real preacher of ours, a real pastor of ours, like it wasn't our fault, and then trying to be like that wasn't even like a real like partner of ours or church of ours. It was like they were en an upcoming affiliate or something like that. Yeah. When the superintendent of the Assemblies of God in Nicaragua was questioned by journalist Vicki Baker, he lost his patients and snapped while he said, in over one hundred years, nothing like this has happened before, and why don't you mention the good things we do, like build houses and run schools for the death I'm sure they had some other issue, maybe nothing to this extent, but I'm sure they're not of no, no, no, maybe nothing as this public in this specific town. But these kind of cases are more than common within churches that are affiliated with the evangelical or a evangelical church. So also, the same superintendent has expressed sympathy for the five perpetrators and that their sentences are too long. They burned a woman what do you mean, yeah, yeah, before and that they burned her after starving her, starving her and keeping water from her tied for five days. Oh my god, he said, In my opinion, this young person might have thrown herself into the fire, because I don't believe that five people who are praying are going to all agree to draw someone into a fire. Well, then you're a dumb bitch. This is the superintendent of the Assemblies of God churches in Nicaragua. Mm hmmm. He even went on to say that there's plenty of evidence that that crazy woman did it to herself. Bitch, I will fight you too. What is the superintendent's name here? It's so I'm gonna put our sources in the show notes. But this is from bayez Oh. I get so much info from them, yes, but also the BBC also put it on there. So it's this article this big, it's like a very long piece on BBC. Well you'll see the lean it's BBC dot CO dot UK and then it says nikaiwa exorcism. But this superintendent to name is Raphael Arista, that is the superintendent of the Assemblies of God in Nicaragua, who set all this nonsense. Although in the same article, if you look into it, you'll see that while that's like the position of like the main guy of this church, there was another pastor who where did it go? Hold on? Okay? Because yeah, after she this went public, there was protests and they were throwing like rocks at the Church of Assemblies, Church of the Assemblies of God in Rosita, and they were throwing and stuff in there, and the pastor there, his name is Sabakarees, and he was like, how did one of them not step back and say this is not right? Yes? And he he also concedes that Vima is likely to have been mentally ill rather than controlled by the devil, and that there was no need for an exorcism. So it seems that like at least someone within this church is not terrible. Yeah. Wow. While the evangelical church in Nicaragua has tried to blame Vima herself for her murder, human rights activists in the country have made sure to call this what it was, not just murder but femicide. Muriel Lutierez, who works for a human rights organization in Rosita, has stated that Evilma had been a man, Juan Rocha would not have felt entitled to do what he had done, And I agree because really it's right. Technically, the official what falls undro a femicide is like a woman murdered by someone an intimate in an intimate relationship with her. But to activists in the country, they're like, even though that doesn't fully apply, it kind of does because it's kind of still a famoside because this would have never happened to a man. Yeah. And also the unconfirmed reason that they felt they needed to do this is because supposedly she stepped out of the marriage. In reality, most likely she was assaulted and to them, that was her sin that made her possess which then not entitled them, but like that was their reason, that was their reason. Yeah. Also, I read another interview and I think it's I don't think I saved it, but there was an interview in Spanish with the husband and he was like, I feel like the pastor was like the cause of the fights that Vitamam was coming home and starting to pick fights with her husband, and the husband was like very wary of juandrochat if he was trying to drive awedge between them or yes, for nefarious purposes. I'm like, maybe hinting at this pastor was like trying to get with Villema and then when it didn't work, or maybe this was his chance to cure her and then you know who knows honestly, Yeah, it's not far fetched. I don't think No, I don't think so. And yeah, that was that was the case. Wow, that was intense. It was intense. And it's not in like our notes anywhere, but religious violence or violence toward women in the name of religion has like gotten a lot worse in recent years in Nikarawa because it really Yeah, it's this in the same article I was reading, So where is this? Yeah, somewhere in that article it says that it has grown, but I'm going to read this section here. In twenty fourteen came a further setback for women's rights campaigners. President Daniel Ortega issued a decree widening the role of community groups and resolving domestic disputes, making it even more difficult for women to press criminal charges. Overall, the message seems clear, deal with it or get your community to deal with it. The country's sand Nistan government has become increasingly religious since its revolutionary days, and since that has been happening, the more laws that have passed, like abortion take it away women's rights, and then the more like violence towards women has grown, and it's an issue like femicides or issue all over the world, but like Latin America also, and so that is kind of informing this whole case, and it's important, I feel to note that that is the context of all this, which is a lot like again, so many I listened to like a couple other episodes talking about this, and these episodes are like fifteen minutes long because they're not even like the one is exploring the context in which like this violence is normalized and okay, right, like this violence toward women which Vima is a victim of, mm hmm. It's that in a lot of these places doesn't even count as violence because it's like it's just so normal. Yeah, and that's it. That's all I wanted to say. My voice is giving up. Oh and yeah, and then like even the whole evangelical aspect of this, like it has a long tie with colonization, as does violence against women. So yeah, and then another, I mean we already talked a little bit about the CIA pushing right vangelical church in Latin America. But. Evangelical or like more, I mean Mormon falls onto evangelical right Mormonism, the Mormon tent. They're like like a branch Christianity. Okay, these form these churches that send people into these remote areas. What is that called pratell ties or something like that? Howl long, Yeah, I never know how to pronounce. They go and they have their little missions and missionaries. You know. That is akin to modern day colonization. And I highly suggest everyone reads, not only because we love her, but because it's such an important book. But for brown girls, oh sorry, really quick, it's called Procella tides when they go and try to convert into their religion. The book is called Four Brown Girls with Sharp Bitges and Tender Hearts. Yes, and Tender Hearts by so her book, she talks about she is from Nicarawa, and she talks about how like her first memories are these like missionaries coming and there's some of them like that did whatever good they were there to do without taking pictures, without trying to convert anyone, And those were like that, so real good people. But then there was the people who went and they they gave these things but demanded something in return, and many times that was photo ops that would look good back home. But also they demanded their faith, they demanded their conversion. And then maybe when you know, that's when things can get a little dangerous because these are very controlling, high control organizations that are very sexist. Yeah, so that's all that, I think all that informs this case. Yeah, and everyone should read that book because she talks about it in the first free chapters. It's amazing it is, and it's also yeah, it's just amazing. So is theas and Prima's unknowing and loving the Woman who raised us. Yes, another amazing book. But yeah, all these things you know, ti in when looking at something as horrible as what happened to Villa Matriquillo, that which didn't need to happen That's why I feel like I'm not picky because you know, you did the true crime notes, but I no, But I present to you a case and then you tell me, no, this has no like, this is not this is just sensational, like this isn't Yeah, there's nothing behind this. So I am picky about what because for me, I feel like true crime doesn't exist on its own, in its own vacuum with nothing else infecting it, right, it exists in the world of sexism, of racism, of all the isms. Basically. Yeah, And that's why, like in the beginning, I think maybe I did pick like these more, which is whine you're living you learn you know what? I yes, exactly, thank you, But yeah, I and even if it's not specifically having to do that, like those things are always in our minds. So like, I feel like we always make a point to talk about those aspects when it comes to a true crime case because I feel like you can't talk about just the crime in the perpetrator and the victim by itself. Like we live in society. That's I say, things in that society, yeah, are always affecting what is happening, even when it comes to the perpetrators of violence. Oh yeah, which no one wants to hear, but whatever. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I guess it's a place to wrap up and move on to a recommendation. Yes, let's take a little break here and then we'll come back with spooky recommendations and we're back. Do you want to go first? Yeah? I finally watched the show Laid on Peacock And is this spooky? Sort of? Because well, tell me, I only watched one episode. Oh really, okay, well the show I think it involves a curse, so that's why it's yes, spooky, you're right, you're right. Yeah, So I forgot everyone's characters named already, but the main character, yeah, I don't remember anyone's names. Basically, she finds out that anyone that she has slept with or hooked up with in any sexual way is dying. They're dying in the order that she has hooked up with them, and then her and her best friend you know, are trying to solve this and figure out what's going on. That's basically what it's about. But it's also about their friendship. And our main character is a horrible person, honestly. Yeah, And I love watching shows about horrible people. That's true, we both do. She's so selfish, and you know what, you know why I think I like shows like that because deep down, that's the way that I am, and I had to fight every day to not be like that. It's the truth. I'm just gonna admit it. No, yeah, same, yeah, yeah, when it comes to every day's a battle to be a decent person because deep down I am horrible. Yes, yeah, it is my true nature. And the main character is truly horrible, and so she has hurt a lot of people, and so it's also her confronting herself and her behaviors. I love when people are forced to confront their behaviors. She literally is because people are dying. Yeah, people are dying him. But it's funny. It was good. I liked it. I recommend it. I gotta finish watching it. Yeah, but there's only one season, and I'm hoping it's not one of those times where they don't do a second season. I forgot to check when what year came out, because I'm like, how much time has passed in the first season. I really no, that doesn't give me hope because I wanted to see the rest because at the end because she is strange from her dad, and at the end, her dad comes to her and he's like, this happened to me too, And I think that is a reason. Sorry spoilers, I think that's a reason why he became a strained from her because her mom died. Because everyone that the dad has the same thing happened to him. And so I'm like, I would love to see what's next, but I don't know if there's gonna be a second I don't know. Yeah, but it was a good show. I think I think our listeners would enjoy it because there's also like a true true crime aspect to it where the best friend is upsessed with true crime. Okay, okay, I'll have to check this out finish like it. Yeah, yeah, I have a speaking recommendation, which oh my god, did I already recommend it The Buffalo Hunter Hunter. You talked about it, but you hadn't finished reading it a yet or listening to it. Okay, Oh yeah, because Susta it was the book club pick. But then I had to miss it because I was in the middle, in the midst of moving, in the trenches of moving, so I didn't get to attend the book club meeting. But I did finish the book, but I reading Retreat and then I also sent Save You're Sorry the podcast they share medias I listened to your recommendation. I sent it to them as well. Yeah again, and I needed to tell everyone about the book. But yes, the book is amazing. First, I think we might have said it here or when we talked about Sinners on Patreon with MJ. But vampires are having their moment, and yes that is a recession indicator. Yeah, and the Buffalo Hunter Hunter is one of my new favorite vampire media. I can't wait to reading. You will on my list. You will absolutely love it, you know. And I loved his other book. The only other one I've listened to is The Only Good Indians and that was amazing. That's on my TVR as well. I haven't read it, but I did the audiobook, not the book. The audiobook production amazing. Well. I did the same for The Only Good Indians, and I've heard I feel I feel like a lot of people either love Steep what is it, Stephen Graham, Jon Yes, or they hate them or they hate them. And I'm in the camp of love. But most people that don't like to read his books. They like listening to them. So interesting. Interesting, said, but yeah, the audiobook is so good. It follows. So there's three timelines, well, sort of three perspectives. I think I'm about to read it because I have a hard time listening. Well, it's easy, I think. I think it's easier because they're different narrators. Oh okay, then yeah, I could do it. It follows. So it's a pastor, like, it's in twenty twelve. I want to say it's twenty fourteen. No, it is twenty twelve. The present day timeline in twenty twelve is the she's a professor. She is the ends up being a descendant of the nineteen twelve timeline, which is a pastor. I love a timeline. Yes, I love family members in different generations. Yeah, one hundred years apart. I love that. Yeah. And so her dissertation is trying to transcribe this journal of her descendant in nineteen twelve. I'm sorry to keep cutting you off. I feel like, what is the new book? Why did I want to say the enchanted? And I'm like, I know that's wrong. Close though, I feel like the Bewitching is going to be kind of like this because I know it's like has those academia by vibes. It does have academic vibes like you said, And there is timeline also generations fectives. Yeah, so okay, and you know we are suckers for different timelines, yes we are. And so yeah, that's why this book was amazing already, so that there's that famidle connection. But also it's in the midst of these atrocities that happened in nineteen two, all these massacres, and again there's a vampire and basically the pastor is worse to reckon with his past, and there's like a twist in the end that I was just I was floored. Oh my god, it's so good, Like I want you to finish. I want you to so we can yap about it. Yes, okay, maybe i'll listen to it after I well, I'm listening to Cackle by Rachel Harrison and then my hold for every One is gone from here. Oh yeah, I know that one. Yeah, came through nineteen three of the two I need to listen to and then okay, yes we need to yap about it. I missed the Soustal Book Club discussion, so I need to talk about it somewhere I need It's like, I'm frowding at the mouth. You need to discuss this, need to discuss the recap debrief, Yes, exactly. Yeah. Also another thing we need to yap about is sibling horror media that falls under sibling horror for Patreon. So I've been on our list begging you to do this for like a week. But again, I was in the middle of movie and it was impossible. Yeah, it was my fault. We could in and I was like, hey, we need to do this, and I was like, okay, she just don't have remikes on Earth, but okay, yeah, I know, I know. Also, yeah, I had plans. I also had a plan for another Patreon episode that we were going to record and then maybe next week. Either way, these will be up on Patreon eventually, you know. Yeah, So yeah, that's it for this episode. I think, all right, yeah, I don't know, even if you're not in the Philippines, say tabee tabi poe when you're entering any space and you'll be good. I think it'll protect you anywhere. M all right, stay spooky and we'll catch everyone next time. Bye Bye. S. Book Tells is hosted by Christina and Carmen. Produced and edited by Christina, researched by Christina Carmen and with the help of Don Shout Out Don. If you're enjoying the podcast considerably, gonna say five star review, We would really appreciate it. If you don't want to live a five star review, just don't leave a review. But don't even even lower than that, please, I'm just kidding. You can reach out to the podcast at a spooktos at gmail dot com. You can go to our website at pookitos dot com and fill out the contact form. If you want to support the podcast, you can join our Patreon where we send exclusive stickers, have bonus episodes. Eight dollar members get an exclusive keychain. It's super cool. I got new ones and these ones are huge. And if you want to support but you can or don't want to join the Patreon, that's fine too. You can also get some merch. You can find surets essay, a spooky and old English letters. There's a beanie. I love the beanie. There's also a hat. There's a no Mamus shirt which is a fan favorite. There's a lot of options, crap TOMPs, sweaters. It's almost wetter weather. We're nearing a Spookie season, so yeah, get your hoodies, you're gonna need them. If you don't want to do all that, that's fine too. You can just listen like you're listening now, and that's the best support that you can give us, like I always say in our ad break and yeah, if you like history, you can follow Estodia's Unknown Mining, Carmen other podcast, and you can find as Spooky Tells on all of our socials at a Spooky Tells All. This is in the show notes and we appreciate every single listen. Thank you so much, Stay a Spooky