The Haunting of Alejandra Book Club

Hi everyone. This is Christina, and this is MJ and also Carmen. Yes, this is a book Club episode where finally recording the episode on the Hunting of Alejandra. Yes, it took us six months, me six months to read a less than three hundred It's less than three hundred pages, isn't it. It's like two hundred fifty two or something. I believe it is. Yeah, but you have to also like count the rest of the pages at the end, two fifty four and the epilogue. Okay, okay, yeah, that is how long it took us. Me I finished way after everyone. Was it really six months? Were you exaggerating? Didn't we start reading as like in January or December? No? No, no, no, no, no, I think we started reading. I'm like, it could possibly be six months. So it was at three months maybe, Okay, so yeah, that makes more sense. Anyway, I just felt like very long that there was a moment where I accidentally just forgot to keep listening. You know, It's a good thing because I'm saying that a lot of people still haven't been able to get it from their library. That's true, and so like popular Yeah, I almost because the Vampires of the North just came out. I'm like, I almost really just like really want to do that one, but we could do this Silver Night Trade first. By the time we finish reading it, like, it doesn't matter when it comes out. That's true, You're right. I just want to start reading the other one because I just got my I pre ordered it on audible and it's available now, so but I haven't saw I'm going to read the other one, Silver Night Trade is, aren't I? Yes? But yeah, let's talk about this book first. Just still warning for this episode. This is gonna be like a very free flow our thoughts of the book, and then a discussion at the end. I didn't write an outlined plot by plot walk through because I'm like, man, these take really long. They do though, yeah, and it's a book, so it's even longer. So like I just struggle with what to cut out and I leave too much of detail and then I'm like, this is ten pages. So yeah, I did a very short, very short one. So before we start, I do want to give a huge sugar warning for this book. If you've already read it with us, then you know that this book require requires a huge as sugar few trigger warnings. So yeah, did y'all cry? Yeah? Yeah, okay, yeah yeah, but I the sugar warnings. I'm gonna give suicidal ideation, depression, intrusive thoughts, gaslighting. Would you add anything else? Emotional abuse? M yeah, let me see what else? Is there was something else? Is there an abortion or miscarriage? Yes, there is, there is there? Okay that too? So yeah, those are the trigger warnings for the book. If you haven't read it, if you already read it, then you know and you suffered and you were bad with us. So I'm gonna give a first a spoiler free summary. Carmen, who's so kind enough to write this for me, gotcha? But Alejandra is a stay at home mother struggles with the darkness that only she can see and that threatens to consume her. During her darkest times, a crying woman in white appears to her. With no support from her husband, Alejandra seeks help and start seeing a therapist, where she begins exploring her family history. She soon learns that her maternal ancestors also saw the woman in white, Layarona. She also learns that Layrona will not leave her alone until Alejandra follows La Na into the Darkness and that's spoiler free. I think, yeah, yeah, everything's in there, and from now on we are gonna include spoilers. So if you haven't read it, then why are you listening unless you love spoilers. I love I have to watch her before. I'm like, hmm, should I even bother with this movie? Let me see it? Yeah, yeah, I will do the same thing. So so just to go on a quick side track, you know how we laugh about me being diagnosed with ADHD because you haven't. Yeah, And okay, so I think my friends are like neurotypical or something not to say because obviously I'm not diagnosed, but whatever, but I am and I am your regenical twin and our DNA is the same. So yeah, we're watching this show, which was really good, by the way, it's a book series. What was the show called? What Show Love Us? It's on Apple that Oh my god, it was so good. But I kept begging them to tell me what happens, and they would not, and I was like, man, if this was if Christina was here, if she would tell me what happens. And I was like, you guys don't understand, Like I need to know. I know, and then like they like, we're still gonna watch it, just tell me please. Yeah, I can't be I cannot be at peace until I know if the question is burning, I'm gonna find out. I cannot wait terrible And I'm like, damn, I just how normal people watch shit? Yeah, Carmen, it is normal. People don't sit there looking for all the spoilers. That's that's what I do too, And like I'm on the phone look for spoilers. I'm watching like I'm something. I got another episode. I contained myself while I was sitting there, And then they're like, Carmen, you better not look at it than up when you go to bed. And what did I do? The minute? I was like silo, Reddit, that's what I think you read it. I'm like, how does this end? Reddit? What does this mean? Red? Yeah? Yeah, nobody does that. Yeah apparently not except people like us to know. Yeah. Yeah, here for the cheesement, but like the next level. Okay, so yeah, now we're gonna get into spoiler, the spoiler version of this book clip episode. There was something I was going to say before that, What the hell was it? Wow? I've forgotten. Anyway, I'll go through the beginning of this though. So we started with Alejandra. She's in the bathroom and this fucking scene. I was like, this is triggering right off the battle book. We're starting like this, really, we're starting strong already. Yeah. So she's in the bathroom, she's trying to she's in the shower actually, and she's bleeding from her period. There's knocking at the door, and she's like, oh my god, I just want like a moment to myself, like why can't I just shower? Oh? I know that feeling. Oh yeah. I was like, oh, this is too relatable. And then she right off the bat, like page one or two, we start with like the suicidal ideation thoughts. Right while she's in there, do you think she sees like a silhouette with the torn dressed But she's like maybe it's just a towel, And then a voice is you want to end it, don't you? Then she's she's brought out of that moment because then we hear her stupid husband Matthew say, who looks for dinner? That's exactly how I imagine he said. It's like, oh my god, should I become a voice actor? I know that last time we did a book Club episode. We had the same thoughts about you becoming a voice actor, and really this moment just cemented he almost choked on my water. I'm sorry, there's someone serious. We're terrible. It's fine though. Yeah. Everyone that loves as we can tell us well love this episode and everyone that hates all the laughing and it's like, fuck, these girls get it's fine anyway. That's literally his first words. And I was like, wow, like right off the bay, we knew we hated him. Yeah, seriously, red flag. And so she's been in the shower for twenty minutes and like she's who, why why don't he start dinner himself? M that's my question. So she's clearly struggling, So she she leaves the shower and then once you know, she gets down, she starts walking down She immediately starts hearing like my mom, mom, mom, and she's like when will that's stop? And I was like damn. And as she's walking downstairs, she doesn't even get downstairs yet, and she's she's having more intrusive suicidal thoughts, like as she's walking down like obviously she needs help, right, yeah, And she's again pulled out of these thoughts by the kids that are arguing, and then Matthew just like I picture Matthew sitting on the on the table scrolling on his phone. The three kids are like like literally bitting each other up on the kitchen floor, and he's like stop stop, no, please stop, like not even looking at them, just scrolling on it. That's what I imagine him doing. Yeah, for sure, it was. And we learned that this is a new house for her. They've only been there for the whole family. They've only been there three weeks. They just left Texas and they only left because Matthew got a promotion. And she's thinking about this how like you know, it's all new, and she missus Texas and she's on the verge of tears. And like if you're like walking through your day, you know, the verge of tears, like it's rough. Yeah, And any not sane person, but any caring person would see somebody on the verge of tears and be like, hey, what's wrong? But exactly, but some people don't see. Yeah, they see that they don't care. Yeah, or it's like they don't care. They care so little that they don't even register it, like yeah, they just yeah, it's like invisible, like it just doesn't matter. And that's what Matthew does because like she yeah, she's having these thoughts, she's on the ridge of tears. She like takes a deep breath, walks into the kitchen and like Matthew doesn't say any like I think you can tell when someone was literally on the ridge of tears. And so she walked into the into the kitchen. Someone would say like, oh you okay, what's wrong? Do you need help? And the first thing he says, it's funnily you're here. They're all great. I would have lost my ship, like uh no, and I don't believe in abusing your partners, but in that moment that I would have decked, I would face, I would have thrown hands, were like, bitch, you're here. I would It's a quick little throat punch. They were like x raun hinges in this episode, Oh my god, I think he's kids. It's really earlier than we've ever recorded. Yeah, yeah, I think a little delution. I only had one cup of coffee and I haven't had my med so damn. So he and she does tell him, She tells him like, oh, well, you could have started dinner, and then he tells her, well, I don't know what you have planned for dinner. You do all the grocery shopping. It's your job, Like, bitch, give him P B and J sandwiches, Like who gives a shit? Like come on, mmm, like any snack to appease them, Like, yeah, anything would have done. Open the fridge and see what can I make a lot of this? Yeah, there's corn, dogs, microwaves. And the worst thing is that she had a labeled bag of chicken already and veggies that were already cut up, like it was already ready in a bag, Like he could have opened the fridge and just saw that, like or seen it, you know. And so like when when he says that, and she's just like thinking to herself, like this is what he wanted. This is his dream, not mine. She thinks about the time she told him that she often thinks about death and that he told her there's no reason for her to feel that way because she has it all Like well, other people who could only dream of she has it, and so like she just needs to be happy. Excuse me, you know, it's like that what's it called that? That that sound on TikTok risk, Like, I don't understand why that he Yeah, I killed the man and he walked, and I don't understand why he couldn't. People are saying that he couldn't walk. He walked, just fine. It's like that would have been me. That would have been me. Yeah, because wow, if someone says that to you, that's you need to stop what you're doing. You need to go to the doctor, you need to change. Yeah, because obviously they're not supported that. Right. What is it called weaponized incompetence or whatever it's called. Now, Matthew is the definition. Yeah, yeah, underneath that, it's Matthew from the Yeah. Yeah, well I was gonna mention, but I've mentioned it once. We're discussing the book a little bit more there because there was critique about Matthew's character. Say that right now, Okay, well we'll save it for us after this. As she's thinking that, she like pulls all the stuff out to cook dinner and it's ready in an hour or whatever, and like once they're sitting down and eating the tension at the table and saying, like you could cut a knife through it, as they say, yeah, as they say, I would have looked him dead in the eye while I was like cutting my whatever, my piece of chicken with my knife, be like listen, yeah, I would have actually made a play for everyone but him. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm not gonna like, I'm not gonna yell, I'm not gonna scream, I'm gonna argue in front of the children. I'm just not gonna give you your fucking food like will or I'm gonna make actually make the exact amount where there's not even enough for him to make his own play, like yeah. And as she's thinking about they're at the table and she's thinking about the moment from earlier where he told her that she should just be happy, he interrupts her because she looks upset, like why do you look so upset? You're always upset? Like what do you Yeah, and he again says the same thing, just be happy. Just let people feel their feelings, man, Like, Yeah, you don't have to be happy all the time. You can It's okay, you're not. It's not not really impossible to be happy at the time. It's perfectly normal. Yeah. I think once people realize like happiness is just something that sometimes happens, you can be content and that sometimes happens. Yeah, they come and go. Yeah I think it. It took me like years to realize that, but yeah, it's very true. And he tells her that she chooses to be miserable, which then reminds her of her adoptive family. Don't even get me started on them. Yes, when we can get started on them, we can do it now because we will learn later in the book that they're abusive. We can save it till then. Okay, if you didn't write up for I did not write I did not write up to them, so okay, let's fine, just go on. Okay, So we get snippets up there, like morning routine the next morning, right, crying kids, terrible morning. We get more thoughts of like she's like driving them to school or something, or she's picking them up. I don't remember she's driving. Yeah, I think we get both almost back to back, so I think she's taking them here, but she's driving. Their arguing in the back, and she's like, maybe I should just keep driving into our river at night without them. They won't know I'm gone. And they're crying, the arguing, the asking for me. It'll just it'll be gone. It'll be silent, like it'll stop finally, and oh, I was just like, oh my god, this book it was it was rough. And then she we learned a little bit more about her, like she did have a job before they moved, she was in data entry, but like after the third kid, it just made more sense for her to stay home, even though she wanted to work. And how many people are in this position, like, yeah, yes, and it's so hard because she's she pretty much gave up her dream for Matthew's dream, and you know, she didn't really have one, but just because she didn't have one didn't mean that she wanted this. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm sure we'll get more into her journey with therapy a little bit later, but I thought that was interesting. Basically she molded herself to be the person that Matthew would like instead of being herself from the beginning and kind of set herself up in a way. But not to blame her for the situation she's in, but I think it's something that the therapist also talks with her about, like about having accountability and making her see like you can make your own decisions. Yeah, it doesn't have to be this way, even though it has been this way, like it can change. Yeah, And like reading the book, you get why it happens, you get why she why she did this because of the terrible family situation that she was in. She just needed to escape. She never really had a sense of who she because I mean, as you're growing, you're always changing, right, You're not who you were ten twenty years. You're making You're developing your own sense of identity. And I think, I think like who you are as a person kind of develops in the twenties. I know for me it did. I know for a lot of people it did, because a lot of people are like, oh, when you're in high SCHOOL'M like, no, no, you're still baby. Then you form who you are in your twenties early thirties. I feel like I'm forming who I am now in my thirty thirties too. Yeah, Like twenties and thirties is like the moment that you become who you are as an adult. Yeah, And I think that when you have a traumatic past and childhood and experiences like that, those moments you there, I think they're going to take longer to come. And instead of I don't know, instead of she because she was trying to find a way out of her home situation and the safest and what looked like the best option was Matthew. So you can see how her minded it was safe and it makes sense. But then she's you know, she's trapped, but well, let me finish what I wrote because it's almost done, because it wasn't a lot. So going back to her driving and thinking right as she's she's going through her in her head about how she didn't even want to move, she wanted to keep working, she didn't even want to stop working. She's thinking all of this and the message from Matthew comes in about how he's going to be late, and then she's like, are you serious. He's been gone, he's gonna be he's gonna be gone. He's been gone, He's already gonna be late, like he's never there, and even when he is there, he doesn't help. But like maybe she could, I don't know, have a moment herself if there's another adult there. Right, But now he's going to be late, and so she's not paying attention because she's thinking all the stuff, and she hits the car behind her or in front of her, like rear ends the car in front of her, and because she'd been so distracted. And then she's like, great, this is another thing that I'm going to have to explain to Matthew, like why even happened? And then she's thinking to herself like why am I so bad at this? Like this? She she keeps thinking like motherhood, living like this, this life, it should be easy, it should come natural to other people, but it's so hard for me. Why is this so hard? Because I'm terrible? Because I suck, because I'm the worst? That negative self talk on a loop? Yeah yeah, that made me cry? Yes, that did? It was it was right? Yeah? Yeah, I don't know who hasn't had those thoughts, you know. I think people with depression have those thoughts, people like my friends about with the show again, yeah, or when you have untreated mental diagnosis, Is that you didn't know about that could cause depression because you had no idea? Yeah, because you weren't you didn't know how to manage your life because you didn't know you need extra or different ways of managing your life. Yeah exactly. Yeah. But yeah, once she said that, I was like, oh my god, and it's so like rough to see because she's like there's this new term that I've started seen popping up, but single married momsy, Yes, when she's a single married mom, she's she's doing all the work of a single parent, but she's technically married however. But it's like it's it's what's the point, what's the point? You're you're a single parent if he's not there, if he's not helping you with the kids, whether it is for school work, emotional support, because like I know, most of the moms carried the emotional weight of the family. Like, not only do you have to handle your emotions, you have to handle your mental load, yeah, the mental load. Yeah. And if a man isn't helping you or your your spouse, it doesn't have to be a man. But like your spouse is not helping you, you're you're pretty much a single parent even though you're married. But you're a single parent. You're doing everything. It's even worse because when you're like, say you're divorced, because you don't know when through all the ship and you have some nice to yourself because you're sharing custody. You don't have that as a single married parent, don't. You don't. And it's like it's like, be you're not alone, but you're the loneliest you've ever been. Yep, yeah, yeah, I felt for her. It was yeah, yeah, it's I'm telling you this would Yeah, it's just makes it makes me so frustrated. I was so mad. I wanted to jump in there and just throw hands with it's just fucking punch him in the throat. And as she's leaving this accident scene, she sees the woman from the shower again. She thinks she does, but then she kind of talks herself out of it. They get home, it's the same shit again. And then the oldest girl, Katrina, so she asked for like a bedtime story, and this she tells her the story of Layrona, and she's like something, I think seeing the woman in white that she thinks she's been seeing but she's not sure maybe like inspired her to tell her the story of La Rona. But then like a little Katrina is like scared. But it turns out that she's been seeing this woman yea, which I'm skipping a lot because I think we learn that a little bit later, but like in between, I think there's a point where Alejandra realizes, like I really need help like like I really actually need to seek help, and she goes and she finds Melanie Melanie, and I love Melanie. I mean too. I'm like I was like, how do I find a therapist? Slash heler like, hey, yeah, how do I find a Melanie? But yeah, Melanie is the therapist that she finds. But she's also so she's like very open to like she understands the cultural background the Alejandra comes from because was adopted it into white a white Christian family, and Alejandra her background everyone is Mexican, but I don't think she knows much about them until she does, like an ancestry test, you know, finds her birth mom that way. M hmmm. Before they left Texas to go to Philadelphia, she had just started reconnecting with her mom. Another reason she didn't want to leave, finding that community that she longed for for so long. Because on top of like being a single not yeah, I was gonna say a single mom, single man, but yeah, on top of being you know, a new parent with that many kids, a newborn or yeah, the baby's like not even a year old, right, I don't I don't remember how old he is, but he's little, yeah, or she's sorry, the baby nine months or something. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's a little baby. Then Katrina's like in her close to tween, right yeah, and then the other one is in between. But like three kids, there's a new like a new baby in the mix. She just finally got the community she's so longed for because she was adopted and she already felt like she was missing a part of her. She finally finds her and like you know, some some adoptive people, it takes longer to connect like that with a parent, but she she was like a little reserve, but almost all in right away. She was very happy to find her mom, and then that gets taken from her. But then she's also in this new place and she doesn't want to tell her mom, her bio mom, you know what's going on with her, because she's like, I just met her. I don't want to scare off. She can't talk to anyone about the thought she's having either, So it's it's just like a it's a terrible it's a terrible situation. And to me, I don't know, but like I'm speculating that Matthew didn't like the fact that she had someone else in her corner, and it almost and it almost felt like his move to Philadelphia with something like for what does it about familial? Yeah yeah, yeah, I think if it wasn't it worked out that way anyway for him, for him, for him specifically, because there's a part where she tells Matthew she learned about her mom and she's going to meet with her, and he's like, why we're all the family you need? Yeah, I need to not make it voice, but that's what it came off as to me, like he was like I selating her so he could further control her. Oh that's what I was gonna say. Yeah. So it goes beyond like weaponized incompetence and she's being like a useless man. He's like an abusive, controlling man. Yes, m but tries to not come out off that way. Yeah, like covert abuse yeah, uh huh. Yeah. So where it took her so long to realize what it was because she was in such a dark place. But once she starts going to see Melanie, she starts seeing like, yeah, I don't need this, this is I can change my future. I don't have I have ag yeah yeah yeah, And and it's scary because she had not been working for so long, but yeah, the going through the therapy and then oh, another thing that was like different about like Melanie is that she tells her about, you know, the figure she's been seeing, because there's at one point there's no denying that this figure is actually something that's hunting Alejandra. It's like she sees it here and there, but then she sees it in the backyard or something. Yeah, and she and the therapist office that one point, yeah, but isn't at the moment she sees it and like the kids closet. But then she's like, I need to tell Melanie about this, yeah, because she feels like it's escalating, and yeah, Katrina's closets because she's the one that sees her. Yeah, Katrina tells her she still saw it too, and that's when she's like, I'm needs to tell Melanie and instead of just missing her or anything, because Melanie understands this cultural background and because she's like, yeah, I believe you. This is not just your like trauma. This is like the hunting, this is this is something else. And they look into it and they're like, oh, let's yes, but like I think we skipped a part where we go back to her first ancestor that made the fact of this thing. Yes, we do, Yeah, because the book goes back and forth, and so as Alejandra has seen it, we see snip it of what it actually is. But Alejandra obviously doesn't she didn't fully comprehend. Yeah, but we do get a more info. I think it's like as early as it's early on. Isn't it after her like first bake Drone? Yeah, the second Chester, isn't it. I want to say it was the second, but I can't even find it right now. Yeah, Yeah, it's on. It starts on page thirty four mm hm. And it's Mexico, fifteen twenty two. Yeah. And the ancestor was at sim At. This part was wild too, the whole mindel That's why I finished his damn Books of Fasca. I couldn't stop reading. And I like how the author did that whole thing that this creature was from like another dimension or universe, that when this universe or dimension formed, it like it was like pushed into it and stuff. Yes, so I thought that was really cool. It takes place in fifteen twenty two in Mexico and her and Tire village and people are being what is it called, colonization is happening. Yeah, yeah, colonization is happening, and she has to stay behind as her sister, her baby, and her father escape. The chapter was amazing, but it was also very rough. Yeah. Yes, because then she's then becomes like a I want to say, like a like a slave to I think, and slaved to one of the colonizers I forgot his name, Sebastian. Sebastian, Yeah, and Sebastian is married and all this stuff, but he's still like abusing at sea, like sexually, and she becomes pregnant with Sebastian's baby. Yes, and this is where this creature thing, I don't know what to call it. It comes off as a vampire but also as a cool like the way the description is like of a ghoul, like you know, it's like almost skeletal and has like the skin really forming the shape of the ghoul. But then the way it like feasts on things, it's almost vampiric and the way it feasts on negative energy. So I don't know what to call it. Welcome to our little hunted break. We want to give a shadow to the SPOOKI supporting us on Patreon. Thank you so much to Mickey, Brianna Herzon, Alejandro, Jessica Laney, Valerie, Ken Chatta, Christina Eric and vive imre On Fear Street, Maddie, Desiree, Diana Ruben, Sonja, Liliana, Isaac Nato, Mama, Nellie, Alexandasriel, Malia, Gina, Bianna Ashes and Janie Michelle, Manica Modesto, Cynthia Purla, Jena Dahlia, Martin Renee, Eaties, Ghost Train, and Matt Town Charity. Your support means the world to us. Thank you so much. If you want to join the Patreon go ahead and head on over to patreon dot com slash Spooky Tails. You'll gain access to bonus episodes we try to do two a month, but always at least one, and monthly goodies like stickers. And if you're join the highest tier no MAMS is Super serious a Spooky then you get an exclusive key chain. But don't worry. If you cannot support us monetarily, then you are not missing out on anything. The best support that you can give us is just listening to our episodes here, so thank you for doing that. Fuck it's a combination between like a vampire a demandor and Colin Colin. Oh yeah, oh sorry I met Colin. Are we doing the shadow? Yeah? But like if there was a scale like what I don't see, Okay, he could because he's like an energy vampire. Yeah, and she is too, and feed off it's not yeah, it's not energy, but it's like negativity. Yes, the emotional vampire in what we do in the Shadows. That is Colin's girlfriend at one point. That is who Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say like almost like uh, what is that legend? Oh my god, she's in the trees and shit and she's like snake ish. She was in one of Syria's books and we've done an episode on her and they cannot remember her name. Oh yeah. By I feel like it was like at that took me a many Yeah, I know, I was completely drying to blank. I feel like it's a mixture of that and like a witch like like yeah, it's like almost I guess that that too. That too. It was like I can't say it, how it how it feasts on like feast on babies, babies. Yeah. Yeah, And I do like the ending of this chapter because I was like really happy the way Subastian. I was like getting them get up. I was like, you want to go through it, one of you? What happens to him? Oh? Hold on. It was just all you're probably on the page, right, and I'm not on the page. You were still on it. Say that this is like basic, especially we're seeing the creation of this thing. Yeah, yeah, the creation and it morphs into what we know as Laurona. And I just thought that was beautiful because you see her name or the because I feel like Eatsy herself is Laurona and it takes her form her. Yeah yeah, and then like yeah, okay, so before his end, I do remember that at Sea was I don't know what happened to her, but she was like wishing for death or something or for her the baby inside her to be killed, and then this thing like hurt her or like felt her, yes, felt her please, and was like because the baby in her is as a result of Sebastian assaulting her, right, yes, yes, And she was like she didn't want it, and she also didn't almost like gave up on life, and she was like making a pact with this thing, and the pact was made and this thing took the baby out of her and ate it. Yeah, I think so, yeah, because I so. To anyone else, it looks like a mother killing her child, like, but really, what is happening is that a horrible situation and she needed out, she needed out. Yeah, and so it's like a like a yeah, I mean a rewriting of like yes, yeah. But in the pact. One of the deals in the pact was that this thing had to go after Sebastian two and and she yeah, and she And at this time Sebastian had moved his wife and his child from Spain. Yeah. I don't remember how old his child was. M I don't remember either. It was like it was either a baby or a oh his two Okay, I'm on page forty two, and it says, with an oil lamp hand taken from the front of the house, he crept towards the room where his two children slept, two kids that he had with his wife, and he like goes throughout his house and he discovers one by one that his family has been murdered by this thing. He thinks, I think he thinks it's one of the It doesn't I don't think it says who he thinks it is. But he's someone someone indigenous. Yes, yes, yes, but he doesn't have like a thing. And then he's on page forty three revenge she would have to wait. So that's what's going on in his head. He's he's like contemplating revenge to whoever, whoever did this, Okay says before he takes another step to door slump behind him. He turned around and a slashing pain seared his hand, causing him to drop the lamp. And this is at the time where the creature starts attacking him, and it says his peripheral vision, he saw a figure standing outside. It was an indigenous woman. She stood with her clothing and hair dripping with water and a large grin on her lips. Her entire body had the luminosity of the moon. Her eyes met his, reflecting his cruelty back to him. Then she walked away and with the shirt steps before he could screw his neck farther from the darkness to follow her. With her eyes, a shadow emerged from behind the door, and in its hands it held his horsewhip. Oh, which I think he used the horsewhip to like beat the the indigenous people they enslaved. Yes, so the creature was like, Oh, they're gonna do it to you. And then he calls it a demon m hm. On page forty four. Oh she's whipping him. And yeah, but here we we get we start seeing how the being I hate the word being because I sound oh Bean, sim still stuck on that which is a demon, because that's like the closest thing we're going to get to it like encompassed everything. And and we start seeing this demon I cat dec We start seeing this demon in the beginning of and us like line of ancestry, and and then we we see generation by generation how this thing attaches itself and affects everyone. Yeah, it's generational trauma, Like yes, it's just amazing the way she made it into a demon, because you can trace people's it goes, it travels. That's why it's a word. That's why it's a thing. Generational, Like it's real. And you know, for her to go all the way back to colonization then the Mexican Revolution, Like oh yeah, and I love that because there's so much scientific research that shows that generational trauma actually changes your genetics, so you could actually trace it scientifically, I mean, I mean not just like psychologically, but also there's like mutations in people's DNAs due to generational trauma. Yeah, yeah, just so. Yeah, the way that it was depicted through this thing brilliant. Yeah, and we see we literally see how it's affecting every single one of her ancestors and then how this thing like thrives off of all the trauma. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, it's thought of it. It's like ecstasy to it. I was like, yes, and yeah, I literally so grossed out. Also, like I think a really good personification for narcissistic abuse, because this, this this demon creature thing is a narcissist. I mean, it's just it's manipulative, it's abusive, and it feeds off of it's victims. It wants it's yeah, them to stuff. Remember how mad it was when Catherine basically said like, nah, I'm not doing this, and I mean I'm obviously and that's defining the process of her giving yeah up for adoption. Nah, I don't want to do this. Yeah, but that was her way of like stopping, you know, the cycle for herself, and she stopped there for herself, but not for future generations because she didn't even she's not going to think about that it was what seventeen, But then we start seeing it take hold or start planting its little seeds into Katrina and it starts, Yeah, it really does. But like if you think about it, like you know, starts start early, starts there early, it does. And how many kids I remember, like, especially in our culture, like from being as young as I don't know, as soon as you could walk, you have like comments told like muhs and stuff like that. And that is generational trauma, because that is shit that has affected all of us as women. Our mothers are grandmothers and all that stuff, and especially yeah, so ingrained and all that is abuse in trauma. And we get taught it as as soon as we're born, and people and our family probably talked about it even before we were born, honestly, and the womb in the womb m yeah, But through therapy, Alejandra starts seeing like we need to beat this thing. This thing can't do this to us anymore. We're gonna end it. And and then Matthew starts seeing a change in her too, and he's a little bit about it. Of course, of course I didn't write down any like direct quotes of what he says, but it's more of the same, like he's just the worst. Yeah, he sucks. And then there is a point where Melanie the thing actually physically manifests itself. And think she's in alejanderson Will's room when this happens, and so then she talks Melanie about it. Melanie comes over. I wanted them to hook up. I thought they were going to. They don't raise serious Melanie, she's a therapist. There's a I just thought that they would liked each other, and I don't know that. I think I saw that she's a social worker, so I just thought they were. There's a pamphlet. There's a pamphlet. I'm sorry, Karmen is a social worker. This is where she still worked up about this. I am that would have been a violation. Cute couple, Are you stop it? I'm not pulled through the screen and punchy right now. There's an ethical violation. Clinicians and therapists aren't a power position over their clients. Okay, well, then I hope there'd beffs now that that would also be an ethical violation. You can't be friends with your clients, don't I'm not. Yeah, there's a pamphlet when if a client tells you that they had like a relationship or sex with their previous therapists or something like that, you have to give them a pamphlet that says therapy does not involve sex. Oh my god, I didn't know that people lose their licenses over that. Oh shit, Okay, well then I take it back as they should. Oh yeah, you're right, you're right, it is wrong. I just thought, and that is why I should pass my exam on the twenty five. I believe in you that that was an a for me. Was not That was not not a good lesson on the Code of ethics. It was it was I needed it obviously. But Melanie comes over and not like a is it like a cleans just like a cleanse cleanse? Yeah, and they're they're gonna but it doesn't like it works maybe a little bit, but the thing comes back. Then they need like a better plan. And so then Katherine, Kathy you know, comes over from Texas. She's like, no, my daughter needs me. Because Kathy also sees the thing. Yeah, oh my god, woman, that had scene when she sees it in the in the baby's room that I was like, damn. And then it's not horror. Do you have the sentence near you? One of you? I'm trying to find it. I am what's it called? On Francis's Oh, that's where I am too, because I think it had been like a bad night where Alejandra one it was a bad night where they saw the thing or something like that, and then Kathy knows something is wrong. She feels like something is wrong, and then a handa calls her, but Kathy has already booked her, Like yeah. The one thing I don't like is that Alejandra kept on making her kids sleep in different rooms. I'm like, this thing is out there. Why aren't you having your entire family and run one room so you can protect them. I was so mad at her for that. I was like, girl, yeah, sleep on the floor, have your kids sleep on the bed, But why are you? But I wonder if that would have scared the kids even more, you know, like maybe she's trying to maintain a sense of normalcy. But then I also feel like it was just like it was too much. It's like you can't get to your babies in time. Also true, it's hard. I'm like, you know what kids are gonna do? A sleepover? No? Nothing's wrong. Everybody gets marshmallows and watch movies. I just want some family time, no reason kids. Okay, I found it. It's so Yeah, she sees like a woman where the newborn sleep, and the woman is like an outdated we're an outdated address from the fifties, and she can't tell like the women's features from far away. But then she gets closer and closer, and now I'm going to start eating shit, she said to herself. Kathy took a big stripes to reach the end of the hallway, her heart pumping hard. She needed to exercise more at her age. Sorry, Kathy stopped in front of the glass wall where you can view the newborns. She gasped. A hideous creature in the guise of a woman in white stood among the babies. And it didn't wear a dress, at least not in the real sense. It's dress was the patrick of dead flesh and fabric kinging over its exposed bones. Its eyes had a glare of greed while bloody saliva drink from its mouth. And then yeah, and then she calls her help, and obviously the thing is gone. Yeah. When someone gets there and they're like, girl, you need a vacation. We also didn't mention just because we skipped a bunch of like the recap. But Katy's own mom, obviously we know Alejandra's whole line of ancestors have been affected by this entity, this demon. But Katy's own mom, it was terrible. The thing took her. The thing won. Oh. I was going to ask if because I didn't remember if it was Katy's mom. The when I was like hooking up with people in the hotel, that was Francis. Yeah. Yeah, because she needed to feel alive. She and again it was the depression, postpartum depression, and then you know, prolonged like untreated postpartum depression. And then she just like left one day and then she but she left. Okay, I forgot what happened, and she does end it those like thoughts that happen. She actually what did she do? She she walks into the river. She walked into the river. Yeah, and so so Kathy herself never never knows finds out what happened to her mom. And then the same thing with Kathy's dad was like weaponized incompetence. The same thing wouldn't help, but dad was more like he was just working and working, and he left the kids with his family and he was in and out, so it wasn't even weaponizing in cuppints, so it was just like he was not there. Yes, it's like when he's married to Francis. No, even when he was married to Francis, he's like a work because he wasn't in the midd military comes and goes, so he's not there. And then when he's back, he just gets her pregnant and he goes again and comes back and goes and then uh, then she's largely absent. He's also largely absent, and she sees him with another woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is like the more Latino version of what Matthews doing. Yes, But and Kathy, when she's giving birth to Alejandra, she hears the thing, but she doesn't really register it until that night when she sees it again at the hospital and that's why she books the flight before even Alejandra calls her, and then you know, then they go over there. They have a plan to get rid of it, but it involves Alejandra temporary her harming herself because that's what the thing wants, so they need to like lure it in. But they're only luring it in. But Kathy doesn't want to do it. She's scared because you know, she's she could possibly lose as like no, because this thing is gonna keep, it's gonna it's gonna take little Katrina and then her children if she has them in the future. It's not going to stop and needs to end here. And so she like cuts herself and then like pushes that thing inside her basically right, yeah, it's pretty graphic, it is, but but yeah, they I mean they in the end, they win, right, And I like the ending where she just like, yeah, yeah, she does this thing that she's recovering. And then do we like get a little fast forward and she does like leave Matthew, right, yeah, I does. I think she like I don't know if she like fully says I left Matthew, but like I think she talks to him about like I think something like that. Yeah. And then okay, so I read like at the end, because I have some things that we like didn't cover that the creature says that she's not the the youna the woman are that she makes like a separation that that's that's what I said at the beginning, that se and the thing takes her form. Oh my bad, keep saying its yes, Noel, Noel. I think it's did her name all wrong? And then where's the other one that Israel? Yes? And then what's it called? Oh oh oh the ancestor, the ancestor that fought with us, and she gives them the secrets? Mom? Yeah, mom? Was it Francis's mom or grandmother? I think it was her grandmother? Oh my bad? Okay, yeah. I think she figures out because she her story. Her chapter was amazing, I think my favorite. Yeah, we forgot to mention this whole thing. And she meets Amelia, who we talked about on his story as unknown. Oh my god, yes, I texted you right away. You did. Yeah, that was an amazing chapter. She ends up falling in love with Sapa and and she gets pregnant with I thought it was just another so it was about that, right, I thought, So does this happen? Yeah? And so she ends up falling in love with him, gets pregnant, but they're still in the war thing, and then she goes, yeah, she killed you. She shot. No, she's shot, but like the thing is like they're in a tent and she was having like a like some kind of like moment with her man. And then she goes outside to get water to a river and she sees and the river, she sees this the woman and wife. And then finally I don't know what happens. I don't I can't remember, but she gets then somewhere around that time, either right then or like right after Sabbata and her go to this place for like this congregation, there was an ambush and Sabbata gets shot and killed, yes, and then she pregnant, gets injured, and she's like her, I don't know what's happening. But this creature thing is where she's like aboarding the haven't miscarried, miscarrying the baby because she was, and this thing gets close to her, yeah, and at that above her at some point, Yeah, it's like right above her. So at this point she's like she's like, you know, she's she's a she's a soldier too, so she like grabs this thing and almost manages to kill it. And yeah, she it's like almost like she's trying to do and she's grabbing it and she almost manages to kill it. But you know, a lot of stuff happened. She loses the baby, but she survives the gun wound. So then she returns to her home where she sees her daughter and stuff, and and she tells her, Oh, like, we have some stuff that is in the family that we're going to have to fight. And then you fast forward a bit and she returns into Alejandra's dream and she's like, I know how to kill this thing, and you have to get close to dying. Yeah, in order I forgot to say, yeah, I forgot to say. That's how they learn how they have to beat this thing. And when they come up with that plan. So I'm so glad that you yeah, because I was like, wait, there's something this thing I forgot, but yes, and that's how they learned that. In order to even get close to this thing, you have to almost be right right a death store to even keep your hands on it, which is why then Alejandra is like, I have to hurt myself to do it. It has to think that I'm I'm giving in, and then she just shoves the thing inside of her. Yeah. It was just freaking crazy m hm. And then and then she basically gives birth to this thing at the end and then yes, finally fully kills it. Because she made it mortal, she gave birth to it, like it wasn't just this spiritual thing and became real real, Yeah, like physically real, physically real, and that ending was just amazing. Do you, either of you have anything to add before we get into the discussion questions. I don't think so. I just had it some stuff I did. I thought it didn't highlight and I thought I just wrote random notes on my phone. But I did highlights some stuff. Oh cool, Yes, I love highlights. So so let me start from the beginning. I highlighted when the creature is like horney for trauma. Yeah, and it's like talking about how hot the trauma is for it's yeah. And then it says that violence that would scar that it's so hot for violence that would have scar the psyche of generation after generation. Yes. And there was this other part that I came across, and I missed the page because we were discussing something else. But wasn't it looking about Matthew? I wanted to stay too, And I don't remember. I don't know. Oh her father, Oh oh, we didn't really talk about her father. I don't know. He really doesn't matter much me. I feel like she reconnected him, and that's good, but then she finds out that he's also traumatized and has his own generational trauma that he has to heal. There was another thing that the creature said that it was so fascinated by the way death affected humans, Like the whole thing got probably the it Probably they just like loved the that they die, that people feel, Yeah, and then like how weak their bodies are and stuff like that. I remember like saying things like that, Yeah, damn, what the fuck was I gonna say about Matthew later? Or no, my bad. I think it was just about how Matthew is didn't like her going back to therapy. I don't know. There was something about he also like didn't like that she had oh yeah, anything that with her getting back in touch with her culture and her roots. He didn't like, Yeah, anything that would lead her to community and and give her life. I did highlight earlier on you know, when she's having her horrible triggering breakdown in the bathroom. For years she abandoned herself to be a willing sacrifice to please everyone around her, and now nothing existed within her anymore. Even her own hand was not a hand at all, but a blade she used to carve her heart for anyone who asked for it. And I was just like, wow, that is so when I read that. Oh yeah, and I'm like, this is why people have got a ba and have boundaries clear. How can you learn that you need boundaries if you don't know what they are? Yeah, it's like she didn't know on so she was at her very breaking point and she's like, oh, I can't do this anymore, you know. And it made me think of our own mother, who another it's a trigger warning. Yeah, I highlighted this because it made me think of her, you know. And I remember at one point she'd be like, oh, I don't even buy myself new underwear because everything I buy it for you buy. And I felt that because I do that, I do that myself. We'll stop it. I'm trying. I know this year have actually spoiled myself. I was like, you know what, fuck them kids, I need underwear. I thought you ever gonna say something else the kids, I'm buying myself with coloring. But no, But it's so important and it's so and it's so like ingrained culturally societally for moms to give up everything like your a mother first, and yeah, you know your kids. You know, you should protect your kids, you should care for your kids, but at the end of the day, you're your own person. And yeah, a lot of people get lost in parenthood, yeah, and forget who are and it's so tough because it's like such a huge responsibility. And that's what I'm saying about Alejandra. She never knew who she was and then you throw in parenthood and that's after kid, Like not to give our whole mom's life story, but it made me think of her, wasn't she also like didn't hand also go through parentification with her adopted family, yeah, which also has a whole other layer, like she never had a childhood. Yeah. Yeah, And I mean it's and it's like so true for generation after generation, right, Like we see our mothers giving up their whole persons to care for us, right, and like what do we learn about caring for ourselves? You know? Yeah, not to sound like a major cheese ball, but like I'm so glad that I started first podcasting with you, Carmen, and then you know all this and all that I'm doing, because I think I was like literally falling into the oh yeah, I've fallen into that because like, yeah, it's so loud to cry because I just thinking back, yeah, well, and it made me think of you MG two when you when you said that Christina had reached out to you to start spooky taels and you're like, I need adults to talk to. No. I did, because it was like mid pandemic and like my my husband like works all the time, like all the time, like twelve to fourteen hour days, so by the time he gets home, he might see the kids or he sees the kids for an hour, and in the pandemic at bedtime and bed time, so I did. I had no community I had. I mean I talked to my parents, but it's like your parents, I'm come on me too, the same things. It's and it was like I had during the pandemic. I was just completely I mean obviously everybody was, but a completely more isolated because at least when my kids went to school, I think it thrust a lot of us who maybe went out to I don't know, work and sat people there. If that if that into a deeper isolation, and so that's why I'm like, yeah, yeah, because I already keep to myself and I have like my my group of friends I could count on both hands, right, Like I don't talk to a lot of people. So at that point, like a lot of my mom friends, I wasn't able to see regularly like I did. And it was just like oh my god. And at once, at some things were like pluses and minuses because I am very family oriented, but like there comes a point in time where it's like I'm just talking to children. I have nobody to talk to. And it was so hard, And I think it was hard for a lot of moms, especially if you were the parent who had to stay home with the kids during the pandemic, like if you were lucky enough to still be working outside. I think like that. I mean, as hard as it was, it was the only, yeah, only communication you had with other people. Like I remember back when I was a pick me, because I used to be a terrible pick me. It was the worst when I was doing or me and all these married we would like talk shit about the stay at home moms like they're not doing anything. I will never say that shit again, Like this is the hardest job, Like what do you mean? And it's so hard, and it's like this year is going to be one of the hardest years for me and my kids because again, like the crazy like shifts for him. But like my kid is also ADHD, so he needs extra support upon extra support. And yeah, so it's like the pandemic I think was like one of the biggest things that many people. If you didn't have an experience like Alejandra, you probably had it for the first time. Yeah, you saw it for the first time, whether it was with your mother or like other women that you know. But like you finally started hearing stories that are similar to Alejandras where people are just like losing themselves. And I was reading interviews with v Castro and she literally wrote it about herself, like she was in that mind space that Alejandra was like comment having those thoughts and that's why she wrote the book. Like she she has said in interviews, she is Alejandra like and yeah, it's it's so common, but like a lot of people don't talk about it. But like you said, Carmen, like we I was reading this too, and I could see it and my mom and our mom oops I did the Mexican kid thing. Yeah no, and not only our mom, but like I could see it probably every woman in our family. Yeah, I saw it myself because I've gone through similar situations and again with my mom because she my mom's like the oldest daughter of like seven kids, no eight kids. Yeah, So I was like, Mom, I'm so sorry, like you were, she was never a child and I saw that. Like when I saw that, I was like, speaking of that, have you guys ever like come across those videos where it's like, oh, teaching my mom how to roller skate because she and I do that. I do that with my mom. I was like, Mom, you have to set boundaries with you because my mom is like she's raised she raised her own mom, you know what I mean. So I was like, Mom, you have to put boundaries with my grandmother. You are not her mother, she is your mother. And I also I've also like, you know, I do stuff like that with her. I'm like, no, you're joining us. This is I guess we're painting with the kids, but you're joining us too. And I forced her to do stuff and she's like, I don't want to do this. I'm like, you're going to be a child for like the next hour you're doing it. Forget that. Those those vidos make me crist Do. I was always thinking like, man, I'm gonna have to buy my mom that like one of her toys that she wanted as a kid one Christmas, and I'm gonna like, I'm gonna buy my eyes out, like no, no, okay, And should we get to this question questions now? Oh wait, wait, wait I had more stuff all you're just like I was like trying to get through this. Oh no, no. So I at first I didn't know what time I was leaving because I'm gonna go see Carol g in La and I didn't know what time we're leaving. But we're not leaving until like four, so I have time to pack it. Okay, yeah, okay. So another thing I highlighted was on page seventeen, where it's also about Alejandra, because this is you know, early on during you know, her worst time, her worst state, and so she's thinking about how Matthew everything is Matthew's and she has nothing. And so the part I highlighted was that she did not even have her own last name, not the last name of the children. And I was like, oh my god, because for her, I mean, she wasn't adopted, She's adopted, so her last name. It's not and then and I don't know because it says not the last name of the children. So I don't know if she ended up changing her last name to Matthew's or not. But if she had, that's also not really her last name, you know. Yeah, so yeah, I had it that also. I just want to say. The last thing I highlighted was something that said or from flow to chapter where she says, we must listen to the woman who came before us. We changed the future by unloading the sorrow sorrow of the past. We sever the court of generational curses. Some cords are meant to shrivel away to black and dead flesh. They are are blood, but we are not them. We did not have to accept it, none of it. And I was like, oh my god, yes, yes, it brings me to the to the point, it's in our culture you don't talk about your your sadness or what you go through. You're supposed to be quiet about and you're literally broken, yeah, and you and and your rock bottom. That's when you're like, what am I doing? Yeah? And but even then you're still supposed to like swallow it and not talk about any abuse that happened in the family. You don't talk about, like the family pedophile. You don't talk about like what is it called Grandpa's second family. You don't talk about like a lot of stuff you're suppos about your cousin hitting his wife in front of everyone the Christmas party, Yes, you don't talk about that. And and to even go and get therapy, they label you as a stas local, yeah, you know, instead of like and I always have to remind my grandmother, who has depression and stuff, was like, if you have a broken arm, you go to the doctors. If you feel broken spiritually, you go to a doctor that can heal you. And and but that's still it's like uh, swimming against the river because it's so taboo and Hispanic Latin culture and it's and that's why better but slowly Yeah, no, And I was gonna say not to keep bringing our mother up, Christina, but it makes me think because like you said, MJ, swimming, what did you say, swimming upstream? Swimming upstream? Like I'm like, I don't want to thinking about fishes. I know, I don't remember the quote ever, but anyway, like for her to have saught therapy, divorce, our father remarry yep, and she's she's the first one and out of her siblings to get a divorce and oh yeah yeah, and it was for the better. And and our grandparents knew what our father had to put her through, and they still were like, oh, stay with him, Oh we love him. A lot of that too, A lot of that happens like, oh, you made a commitment, you married that person through sickness and in health. And I'm like, but it's like Flori said, no, we don't have to accept these things exactly. Yeah, you had to when it was the man who could only get a job and who could only earn money. We don't live in that society anymore. But and also religion plays a huge part. Yeah, it does. You can't go against your husband, can't get a divorced because it's a sin. You can't even like have any more conections or like romantic connections, even after you guys separate, Like if you're going to separate, you still have to be like, what is it called when you don't have sex? What is it called right or abstinent to? I don't know which one is? Right before you Oh yeah, so it's like you guys can like separate, but you guys can't have any romantic anything afterwards, and then it only applies to the woman. Yeah, it does because and nobody would ever say anything again if like the man is has like baby MoMA's left right and center, like they don't care. But oh, if a woman has like a child and she's married to she's trying to like she's dating your son, you'd be like, oh that min it's yeah, there was an episode about that. Yeah there was yeah, yeah, yeah, And I've seen that happens so many times where like our own son has like four different baby mamas and he gets with a woman who only has one kid. Yeah, and they're like, oh my god, she's this, she's that. I'm like, your beer son is the manhood. He has four baby mamas. Why are you worried about the girl? Like you should be worried about like how your grandchildren are in separate homes and not being unified by your son regardless if they are in separate homes. M But anyways, it's all that. That's we can get into the questions. Yeah, yeah, question which I think we've already kind of talked about it. But I'll say what the two replies that we got from the newsletter. So the first question was what did you think of the depiction of generational trauma in the book? And our spooky listener Marylyn wrote, I thought it was really good. It was shown as sort of an outside source affecting the person, something that felt like it was out of Alejandra's control. So yeah, I mean we already they talked a bunch about that, but yeah, that is true. I loved that. I loved how it was depicted. Yeah, I mean it was powerful to make it like a its own like physical you know, entity manifestation mat Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was amazing. And I like that how it showed that you could defeat it. Yes, that that was the most important part, Like, yes, it's there, but you could still overcome it and defeat it. Yes. Yeah. And then the next one, in the traditional legend of Layrona, we are told she kills her children over a man. How did you feel about v Castro's rewriting of La Jorona? And Marilyn wrote, I kind of love it. They always make her seem like a stupid and horrible woman. But when you think you're saving your children from a horrible feature, then you feel desperate and would consider that, especially if you have nowhere to run. Not saying it's right, but desperate times desperate measures. Yeah. Also, the ending of the la Jorona story at the end got me crying, like she thought she was doing good, but the story and did the other way around, with Laona being the one that died and it's looking for her kid, her kids that survived. Yeah, and then let me read the other one here. This is from Patricia. This version of the story was interesting. I can imagine how hard it was for women when they had no rights and were forced to pick a man to take care of them. I think this goes along with the theme of the book. With the theme through the book the women are being haunted by the choices they were forced to make, then passing it, passing on the same pressure to the children. And I think we already also talked about our answers to that question. Yes, yeah, we always do this, but yeah, it's true. I love the rewriting of it because it really paints a better picture. I think. Yeah, and then who knows you know the real story, because now at this point it's like a game of telephone, right, Like, yeah, yeah, I like this version. I'm gonna this one. I like this too. We mostly follow a hand, but the book goes back through different generations. How did you feel about the back and forth? And Marilyn Rowe, I was down with the sickness. It gave more insight into who her ancestors were and what they went through with the hunt, what the hunting did before her, and how the story plays out. And I just love that she wrote I was down with the sick I also like how like you see you connect the dots to how it made all the hunter who she is at that moment in time. You get you get the whole, the whole picture, the whole picture, literally the entire thing. It made me wish that I could have the same about you know, our maternal ancestors, Like yeah, like that we couldn't know, but it's just been so yeah, there's no way of knowing, No, at least I mean for us, as some people could go and find out, but let us' Is it safe to assume we all hate Matthew? He seemed to show who he was from the beginning. Why do you think Alejandra ignored the red flags? Do you agree with their choices. Marilyn wrote, yes, we hate Matthew. She chose the safest option, and it's not uncommon to be with someone you don't really love in order to be stable. She knew he could provide and he was into her, so she ran with it. I don't really agree with it, but being adopted into a not great family and then trying to escape that, it's a situation that's not new. And also like she might have not known what love is and would only assume that something better might be what love is. But like when you're an abusive when you grow up in an abusive household, you connect love with a lot of abusive behavior. Yeah, when it's not that and you don't know what healthy love is. Yep. Yeah. And then A Patricia wrote yes, as in yes we all hate Matthew. It felt like Alejandra wanted to have a normal family and with Matthew that would be a sure thing to her. I think it's really coming from a first generation Mexican American family. You're also looking for the version of the perfect American family and forget to ask yourself what you really want or what's best for you. The other factor is that Handra didn't have any family that she could talk about red flags with. Yeah. Yeah, and I completely agree, Like I completely understand how she got ended up with Matthew and stayed. Yeah, and it's so because it does talk about how they were as a dating couple and how he, like I guess, won her over, and the little thing she overlooks in the beginning, which I think anybody could do. I think it's normal to do that, and then really how she stayed throughout time too, And there's also like a sunken cost fallacy for a lot of people about Oh, I mean I've been doing this for this long. Yeah. And it also made me think about how what traditional values are like a double edged sword kind of like, yeah know women, some women, not me, but some women feel like they like they need to follow those traditional roles. Yeah. But I mean there's a reason that feminism is a thing. There's a reason that women where these roles are even more ingrained still fight for you know, liberation, Like there's a reason for all those things. Yeah, it's it never I mean it could have worked, sure, but I don't know. Kind of I'm just saying that to be nice, not really, because I mean, we have all this history showing men abused to power men control women. The more traditional you know, roles are followed, and so I mean, yeah, that's why I said some women and and for those women it's a double one short because they feel like it's the right thing, but at the end of the day, they're nonun control of their own lives, you know. Yep, yeah, I can't say it better than that. Yeah, what would you rate this book? Patricia bro It was really good. I would give a ten out of ten pizza pies, and then Maryland said he out of ten ghosts, and then let me check out. I don't think our Instagram had any They just have comments about how people really liked the book, but nobody answered the questions on Instagram, which is fine. We know people read it. Let's see what did anyone. Yeah, this book was so good. I loved it. Can't wait to see what the next book is. This one was so good. So yeah, yeah, the Sun was good. Yeah, what would you guys? Read it? Ten out of ten? What? Ten out of ten crystal balls, Karmen, ten out of ten, creatures, ten out of ten blood sucking demons? Actually, no, I really liked it. I really liked it. It was, it was, it was. It's so far my favorite book this year. But we'll I guess, we still have a few books to read, so we'll see. We'll see if it gets knocked from its number one spot. I have a feeling vampires of that, I know. I have a feeling it's gonna do it. I love her like I don't think I've read a better book decade than Oh my god, I forgot the book, this book. Yes, oh my god, what a fan on me, I know. And then overall final thoughts, Marilyn wrote, it was dope. I've recommended it to a few people, especially people I know going through shit. And then picture Hiro I enjoyed the book was scary, especially when she would scare the kids. And then she said she also loved how La Rona had a different backstory. Yeah, and yeah again, my overall final thoughts are like amazing book. The by far like one of the best pictions of generational trauma and horror that I'm Yeah, I have seen like uh not, what is it when someone doesn't like something like a bad word? Yeah, I've seen like bad reviews about there's a different where I was thinking of, But I don't remember haters. I don't know. Yeah, but I've seen people say like the writing is flat, like nobody talks like this. Alejandra is only the only fleshed out character, but I think we're seeing everything from character. Of course she has the main character energy. Yeah. Yeah, And they're like, especially Matthew, nobody talks like that. But it's like, please, this is the most realistic, like like, okay, I can't even talk. How lucky for them to never actually meet someone like Matthew, because I've met a few Matthews. I think we all have, and they do talk like that, and they do behave like that. Yeah, like especially when he says what is where is it? I forgot it's in the bat and he's like, this is what you wanted? Yes, Oh my god, I'm sorry. Men sounks like this all the time, all the time. Actually, if you look up a man, it'll say Matthew and Journey. I was gonna say, if anything, I feel like every man has a Matthew inside of themselves that they need to fight every day to not be like because falls like fight your Matthew. Guys, Oh my god, you're in Matthew. But yeah, I mean like overall, I really enjoyed the book. Yeah, and I don't understand the fighting comments whatever. I don't know. Yeah, No, I mean I feel like we could go on and on and on to talking about this book because there's so much that we still didn't even like we're like covered the surface. Yeah yeah, like definitely recommend it, but I mean, anything else before we end this, because now it's an hour thing, that is it? And like if I guess if anybody reads this book after this episode comes out, we want your opinions like that we can keep talking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm so glad that we're doing this because like who others? Whose are we going to talk about books with for an hour and a half. Oh and then like I love the cover too, oh yeah, Like and then you see the creature saying right inside of like who I'm guessing is the representation that I don't even have the book, I just have the picture of it. But I like the cover because it's like this creature is inside her, which is like the generational trauma. So it's like a very beautiful artistic itsentation of what she's going through. Yeah, I love it. I can't believe you missed it, kermen. Yeah, and now that I look at it, so obvious, but I just like, I think I was so like like I would just look at the flowers and how pretty they are, and yeah, oh man, this was so fun. Ye, but yeah, I guess before we go. Our next book is Silver Nitrate by Silvia Moreno Garcia. If you want to join the book club, keep along with the updates on where we are on the book, get the discussion questions and have time to answer them before we record so that we can include your answers. You can sign up for the newsletter. It's on substack. You'll get an email, but you can also just fee the whole thing on substack itself. The link is in the show notes. There's also a bookshop, a link that I keep for getting to put in the show note. If you buy the book there, then we get a little bit, a little bit of sense, a little bit of coins. So if you don't have a Silver Nitrate, or if you want to get Vampires of a Norte if you haven't gotten it, that's also on our list. Daniell do that and yeah, I think that brings us to the end. Thanks so much. Both of you for talking about the book with me. I mean it was main pleasure. It was a good discussion. And stay a spooky We'll catch everyone next time. Bye bye. 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