The Nightmare Box and Other Stories Book Club

Hi, everyone. This is Christina and Carmen and this is another episode of A Spooky Tells, the podcast for all things a spooky, sometimes to crime. Sometimes we're a book club and that's what we're doing today. There's no MJ today, unfortunately, but we do have an awesome guest with us, a returning guest. I should add, we have Cynthia Gomez. She is a writer, a researcher, and she's actually she was with us to talk about the Shivering World sometime last year. Was that last year or longer? Two years ago? I don't remember anymore. Well, it came out in November twenty twenty two, so sometime around then. Yeah, so over twenty four two. Wow. Yeah, okay, and you're back with a new book. I'm so glad to be back. I'm very excited. I got an email one day that was like Oakland Horror is back, and I was like, oh, I'm intrigued, and anyone says Oakland, I'm there, And that's actually what happened the first time. What I think it was on was it Twitter? Yeah, that's why you said I don't remember how we found each other? Is that what I said? Listened to the episode today. So yeah, yeah, I think Cynthia had you made a tweet about something about like and I in Oakland and I was like, tell me more please, something like that. Yeah, and then I, you know, I remembered it and I squirreled that away. So then later when I had the book, I reached out to you to say, you know, like, now it's a real thing and it's it's a book and it's out and I would love to talk about it. And I remember, that's right. I remember that conversation that we had about the Shivering World, and it's it's in a series called Split Scream, and there are two novelettes, like long short stories, and the other is by a writer named m LAPAs Ta Silva, and it's called What Ate the Angels And it's like very different in tone, but very similar in terms of being about like working class, clear people just trying to get by and so so yeah, and that's a lot of what the new collection is about. The Nightmare Box, Yes, yeah, and let's yeah talk about the new book a little bit. So the Nightmare Box and other stories. There's quite a bit of different stories in this collection and they're all amazing. Thank you, Thank you. It's twelve stories and they're all set in or connected to Oakland, and they all center for almost all of them, center ordinate people, working class, square Latino people who are dealing in one way or another with supernatural powers. Sometimes they have supernatural powers and they're wielding them. Sometimes the powers are being used against them. Sometimes it's like a contest for both. And then there are a few that are a little different. There are a few. There are two that are inside the heads of white men who get what's coming to them in one way or another. Yes, so yeah, that's a short introduction to the story. It's all about magic, and it's got your standard horror stuff of like zombie like creatures and there's a witch and there's a ghost and there's a vampire and you know, all those things. But then it uh and I love Ira leven. So there's one story that's basically like a straight up homage to Ira eleven. But then you know, it's my own particular spin on it. Yes, And each each story it's like I'll touching on such important topics that we always always try to refer to back to because like horror and not even just like horror movies and horror stories and books. But even like the myths and legends that we hear, they're all rooted in the same thing, especially in places like Latin America, oppression, racism. Like so you, yeah, you do such an amazing job of always connecting a story because that's I mean, it affects us, it does. Thank you. I really with the stories. What I wanted to do with a lot of them was tackle this is the stuff. These are the things that we have to live with that I have a lot of anger about, right Like I have to walk out every day and deal with people who are and see people being brutalized by the cops, or you know, I have friends who have hard times with their landlord or coworkers who have to deal with sexual harassment and all these are things that I have to just watch or experience or both and I feel really powerless about. And I still don't have any more power in the real world than I did when I started writing these stories. But at least in the world of my imagination. I can change change the equation and change the story. And in some cases I take actual real life stories and write, here's what I wish would have happened, and those are. They sometimes get very dark, but they're also ultimately really satisfying. That reminds me because Carmen and I were earlier talking and we're like one of our both our favorite stories. Let me scroll to the title because oh I have it. Hold on, will they disappear? That one? Right? What about the two adoptive mothers? Yes, okay, yeah, that that one. You know? Reading it, I think Carla and I both immediately recognized what the real story that you uh, I guess, I don't know, took inspiration from based it on. Yeah, the actual case that happened is the Heart Family, and it was such a I mean, obviously it was like twenty twenty, you know, everything was there was like so so many protests and then you know these two. For those that don't know, the story is these two white women adopted five the five siblings, was it? I forget if it was five, it was six. I think it might have been six one of those two. Yeah, they actually at one point lived like an hour, not sorry, not even an hour, like half an hour from here where I'm at. So they were living. They moved around a bunch of different places, and then they basically used it's in the little note at the end of the story that I wrote. But they basically used their whiteness to shield them from ever having any consequences, even though their children tried to tell social workers what was happening. And so they were living in Washington, and I don't remember where, but it sounds like I was really close to you. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I kind of recall they were like, not was Shoogle, but it was. It was not far from here at all. Yeah, so like some small town in Washington, and they finally, it's not clear why, but it seems like they finally thought that they might face some consequences. And the real story, you know, I'm about to tell you is absolutely awful. They murdered their children and murdered suicide. Yes, right near Mendocino, which is not just a couple hours north of where I live in Oakland to Mendocino County, and they just drove off the cliff and it wasn't even clear. I remember reading the news reports about this terrible tragedy, and then later it started to emerge not only was it not an accident, but that there was actually something even worse. If that's possible, then what had already happened. So you know, I remember reading about that and just kind of chewing it over and chewing it over. And this was a Twitter conversation that I was having at one point when I had already started to work on a couple of stories, and I remember making some comment to the effect of, you know, wouldn't it be nice to write a different version of that? And I thought, well, okay, I'm a writer. So that's when I started working on that, and it was It's the darkest thing I've ever written because of the subject matter is so dark, and even like in your story, the things that those children went through, some of them are like things that the real children went through, and it's just it's horrible. And the I think I forgot. I think it was a podcast called What Did You Do? They had an episode on the case, but yeah, I just looked it up. They lived in Woodland, Washington, right before they fled Washington to go to California, where then they went on to murder the children. So yeah, Woodland is forty minutes for me most but they escaped from state to state every time there was something that was like about to happen in those group of children. That wasn't even the first like red Flag, they had adopted another like teen girl and then just returned her, like you can't just return kids like this, and this was after like abusing her. And because there was no like connecting, there was no way for like all these different states to know the history of these women. But also there was no reason for them to doubt the women because oh, look, these are two queer white women who just want to change the world. There was no like, on top of no reason for quote unquote, no reason for them to look into the history of the women. Like you said, they use their whiteness to shield the horrible things they were doing, and that's why they got away with it for so long they did. And it's really I watched this episode. I had already started working on the story, but I watched this episode or this documentary on HBO called Broken Hearts or something like that, and it didn't pull any punches on just why these women did what they did. And the idea that really what they needed was this narrative where they were the saviors. So then I really tapped into that and I will not spoil what happens about the story. What happened to the story for readers. But it's funny because right now when I'm talking to you, I'm staring at my bookshelf and there's a copy of Carrie, like right on top. And so one of the children that they take in turns out to have supernatural powers. It's not exactly like Carrie, but you know, you kind of get the idea, and she can make things disappear and then she can make things reappear. And so I thought, well, let me put that into a situation where you have these moms who have been able to just go unchecked and unchecked no matter what they do, and then let's see what happens when they encounter a child who actually has powers, and what happens with those powers. I'm gonna let the readers figure out because I don't want to spoil it. But you know, it was really dark while I was writing it, but I got to say, it's really satisfying, and again, like, that's not how it happened in real life, but I can, you know. And one one funny little tidbit too. If you are like me and you're a gen X baby and you I don't know if either of you grew up reading the Sweet Valley High series a little bit, a little bit from it, but I never read a bunch Yeah yeah, same so because but Carmon, you're familiar with like Jessica and Elizabeth. Yeah yeah, Jessica Elizabeth Wakefield. So that's exactly where I got the name of both those two women. It was like a little in joke to Jessica and Elizabeth from Sweet Valley High. I'm gonna need to look into this so then I can be in on the joke too. There's a I don't think it's happening anymore that but there was a blog that I read for years in like the mid two thousands called the Dairy Burger da I r I because that's like the hangout that all the kids hang out in the books. And so this was a woman who, like me, grew up reading them and then goes back to analyze all of the absolutely horrible like this, the sexism, the fat phobia. Okay, I need to look into this because I love ruining things for my childhood that you really do. What else do you do you find that you love to ruin from your childhood? Like I don't remember off the top of my head now, But I mean, oh, I'll tell you one that I loved. Harry Potter was one that I actually was like, oh my god, these names are so racist. What is cho Chanin? Like? What wasn't there actually one black character it's called Kingsley shackle Bolt, Yes, the black wizard, that was his name? What kind of shit is that? The good thing? Absolutely insane, the goblins, it's all of so much, all of it, all of it, and looking back at it, I'm like, oh my god, this is actually horrible. Yeah. Yeah, Well, I'm glad that you found that guarnament because I never read them. I watched the movies. But it's it's like, it's it is so much fun to destroy our childhoods. I grew up with John Hughes, and like, it's been really fun to both so both love what was good about John Hughes and also to recognize, Oh my god, did you all see that scene in sixteen Candles where they joke about I mean, I'm I'm assuming everyone knows that knows what the joke I'm talking about, but you know where the two characters are just happily joking about what we know is sexual assault because it's a girl in yunk and she can't consent and that's treated as like, oh haha, it is not that kid funny mm hmmmm. And what's the other one, the romance movie with Ryan Gossling and what's her name Rachel mc adams The Notebook, Yeah, where he's like he basically wears her down by saying, well, he wears her down, and then he threatens to uh kill himself if he doesn't if she doesn't agree to go on a day with him. Yes, and that's abuse, Yes, but it was like, oh my god, some romantic but you were like younger watching it. Twilight a mess? Twilight. Yeah, I could talk about Twilight all day. I'm not gonna but but there's so much the actually read them all. No, but speaking of vampires, Okay, there we go, talk about vampires. There we go, we're coming back vampires. I mean, you already mentioned there's vampires in your book the first story, but I'm not gonna like spoil more than that, but vampires. I love me vampire stories. So this was a fun one. The ending, I was like, wow, this is great. I just I think a lot of the stories were like what's the word, like, oh sweet, revenge or like, yeah, it was one of my favorite things. Like I love when people actually get their come up ins. You know, I do too, I do too. And in all the cases, like it's not a spoiler for any of the stories to say that nobody what those characters when they do get revenge, you know, or when someone gets their come upance, nobody gets what wasn't coming to them. They only got back what they put out into the world. Like the motto of a lot of my characters would be, like it's even tattooed on one of my characters chests, like Roberto from the Thorne story. He says, don't start no shit, won't be no shit. They don't get it that wasn't coming to them. So but yeah, the vampire story that has a funny I like to tell the backstory of the vampire tale. That's the one that's called Lips like Sugar, And it's the first one because I work for a labor union and one of my tasks that I had to do about two or three years ago, now that I was really not good at, was making a database and I had to enter a whole bunch of data into the database. And then there was a formula that we used to calculate seniority, like how many years and days you've worked there? Like you know, okay, it's your start date and here's your end date. Okay, Well then therefore you you've been at that job seven years. And I made some kind of mistake and I accidentally gave a whole bunch of people like instead of you know, seven years of seniority or whatever it was, I gave them hundreds of years of seniority somehow. And so I joked that, well, I obviously I made a mistake somewhere when I calculated that or I put in the formula because as far as I know, our union doesn't represent any vampires. And nobody laughed at the joke. Oh I would have been cracking out. It was a funny joke. So but it got me thinking, like I was walking around with my dog as I like to do and thinking about story thoughts, and so I was like, well, what would a vampire union agitate for? Right, like if they had vampire union committee meetings, what would the vampires agitate for? And that didn't stick around. But what did stick around was like, because like you, I love you know you were saying, Christina, you love a vampire story. I do too, and so often they're rich, right, Like vampires are yich old and rich, old and rich and almost all white, and like what is it with if a vampire is you know, like the obsession with vampires as former members of the Confederacy. But so I just thought it'd be really fun to play with, Well, what if you were just a working class person who became a vampire and you didn't have all this money and you still had to just survive. And so that was part of the story. And then I had this idea that I've been wanting to play with for a while of supernatural power. Like I had this story plan that I couldn't turn into anything about women who have supernatural power and the freedom that they were able to have, but I couldn't figure out why they have it. And so I put those two things together. Oh, well, that's that's who has the supernatural power, is the vampire, and she's just an ordinary person. And what is it like to like walk into a bar and it's full of strange drunk men and she knows they can't hurt her, right, because like no one knows what that's like right, No, it's not just I mean, it's definitely not true for women, but it's also not true for almost anybody who's like gender and unconforming in any kind of way, right you're queer, Yeah, you know, so, like just that thought was really delicious. It was, well, what is the start calling again? Something like sugar like sugar sugar, Yes, and it's it's from an Echo and the Bunnymn song. I don't know who they are. Echo the Bunnyman is like kind of if you like The Cure or Joy Division, like a lot of yeah, same same concept, like same general vibe, right, like a lot of like heavy synth and like you know, they wear a lot of black makeup, a black lott I make up, but you know, that sort of shoegaze synthpop. So if you like The Cure, you probably would like Joy Division two and go and the Bunnyman. But yeah, it's just kind of it's his boppy song. It's called lips like Sugar, So okay, I'll have to look it up. Also, reading through the book, it was like such an emotional roller coaster. Roller coaster. Yeah, it was like one minute, I'm like, oh my god, I'm so sad and where was the high? This is just i feel like I'm fishing for compliments, but I've got to know, like where was the highest roller coaster? I think? Okay, so the for me, the let me look at the name because I never remember names, so it was someone else is to destroy. Oh yeah, getting to the end of that, well, first when I started to realize what actually was going down with the children and of her and just like you know, her whole life and will led her to do that, you like, I understand it, of course, But then at the same time, I'm like, oh my god, like to have to have like to know what she's doing and to know why she's doing it. And I know readers you don't even know until you read book the story and you have to oh my god, that and I have two little boys, and oh that that one, but not only her, everyone's story in the family, like the cousin and the struggles she was going through. And then like, you know, having been the one that this the mom of the boys trusted her to know this is what I've done. Yeah, that I think that one emotionally, but I mean that wasn't the only one, but I think that was the biggest one. I even message Car and I'm like, I this one messed me up. Yeah, it was. It was heartbreaking to know what she felt like she had to do, you know, and and you kind of felt like the main character of the story, the cousin where she's like, well, I like, you can't feel like she did right or wrong, like you just understand like why she did it. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's the most we can do, is understand why. Because I will not spoil what the what it is that the mom did right, because we're all going to figure it out. I can say what inspired me. But frankly, if you've read either of these books, then it's a little bit of a spoiler for the story. So I put them in the show notes or something, let us know offline. Okay, yeah, then I could read it later. Yeah, because it's basically heavily, heavily inspired by two books. One is a kid's book and what is definitely not a kid's book that I read when I was growing up. Oh yes, okay, let us know. I'll find okay, I need to know, Okay, but no that and even I finished and I was like, what happened? And I went back and I'm like, oh no, this is what happened. Oh man, yeah, that one, huh. That one I'm still recovering. I would say, I'm sorry, but I don't know if that's but yeah, it's it's a whole it's a whole lot. And what's interesting is that was actually the first of all the stories in here. There's the one that I published earliest, and it's the one that I was like the most iffy about including, because you know, to to write is to grow, and I remember looking at it and going, Okay, there's some things that I would do differently, Like there's a little bit of a there's some stereotypes that I feel like the character of Imani, she's there for Latina character falls into that. I think I would probably I see, I would probably polish up now and I would probably take on a little bit differently for her. You know, I wasn't going to re edit it because I feel like, that's that's not what we do, right, Like, that's that's what I wrote then, five years ago, and it's the kind of ritter I was then. But I know you're not supposed to read your reviews online, but I do, and what I find interesting is how many people like the combination of getting drawn to the will they disappear and the saone else is to destroy it. Like very often people will say that those are the two that jumped out at them just just the way that both of you have because they are the they're easily the darkest and they kind of touch on similar themes. Is like the fuller opposite of caretakers caring for kids, right, yeah, because like at the end of the day, what would you not do or what would you do? I mean thought a thought popped in my head that I'm wondering if this is the book that you read. But I'll just wait till you tell us to see if I'm in the chat, so we don't spoil it for the listeners. Yes, all that to just say, everyone has to read this. It's so good. It's so good, like we were saying, an emotional roller coaster, but also at the same time like cathartic, but at the same time, I mean some stories were also fun, Like there's just there's like everything not to I mean, we're gonna it's not that you're fishing for a couple ofments. We're just we're gonna give them you know they're going to throw them out there, because so it was It's like, seriously, such a good collection of stories. There's another one I do want to talk about, though, the Red Break. Oh my god, that was my Oh that was my other other Yeah, yeah, that was our other favorite one. A lot of the stories here are they come from anger. They come from anger and frustration. We could sense it. I think I could. Yeah, I could feel it, and you know, I didn't want to just be anger. I wanted to do something with it. And so I remember, I guess this is, you know, years ago now, but when the news started coming out about children being kept in cages, and for one thing, we already knew that that shit had been happening. We already knew just how much horrible stuff had been done along the border by every president. But it felt like it took a new, a new sleep into depravity during the Trump administration. And I remember just having this image of Kirsten I think Nielsen, doesn't matter what her last name is, but the woman who was like head of homodsecurity at the time, you know, who was kind of responsible for the extra leap into depravity. And I remember just I had this picture if I wanted that wherever she went, I wanted her to be confronted by ghosts of little children, little brown children that had been taken from their parents or that had drowned on the border. And I wanted her never to be able to eat a meal in piece again without confronting those people, without confronting the people that she had harmed. And you know, obviously I would love it if somehow that could happen in real life, but right, And I also started thinking about the fact that lots of quote unquote good people have to make horrible decisions, like the main character in Red Brick, and they still have to people who still consider themselves good people. Right, So the narrator or the main character in Red Brick is you know, he's a family man, and you know he cares about his children, and he's like the whole time, just to find it. Yes, I had so many thoughts on Aridian, and I'm like, but this is what happens when you do humanize and make somebody an enemy, like you don't see them as like you. You're able to justify any action, like you take a quote against them, because you don't see them as you know, someone equal to you, yeah, and I love that that was what you picked up on garment because that's it was not very fun to be in this guy's head. But it was also kind of a fun challenge to figure out, Okay, how do I you know, for one thing, how do I write a story about a racist without writing a racist story. That was a challenge, right, And also like it didn't feel like like someone because you know, I think sometimes when people write like racist characters, they make them like curric. I can't say the word. It's too obvious, it's too out there where now it's like a were you gonna say character, yes, that word, I can't say yeah. But here it's you see that every yeah. You see how the everyday white man becomes that yeah yeah and is and doesn't even see it as something that's wrong because he doesn't because it's not not to him. But then and even the wife is like, oh, like, your friends say this and you know, insert derogatory term towards these children, migrant children. And then he's like, well, they say that, but I don't. But you're but he's still in this field, and he's still he still thinks this at the end, when he's like completely freaking out, and he you know, thinks he sees what he sees. He uses these terms too, and so at the end of the day, he was that person, but to him he wasn't. And his coworkers were Mexican at least they had Latino last names. So you're like, yeah, exactly, I had one person challenge, well what about making him Latino? And I, frankly was just I had already finished the story. I was like, I don't want to go back. You're like, it's late, it's too much now. But you know, but he's just an ordinary guy. He's not the you know, the head of any of this. And that was fun, like the and especially like I won't spoil the scene outside the donut shop, but that was nothing but and you know, the kind of thing that like I really wish would happen again, Like it's you know, I put my wishes on the page and it was really fun to do. That was yeah. That was I mean, like in my top three because I can't even like I have too many favorites. I'm god, that's my favorite, that's my favorite, but this was like really really one of my favorites just to see like, oh, I hope someone is out here really being haunted like this because the things that you have to do to be in that line of work, like oh, and we have I mean we have I don't know if direct family members, but like people in the family and you know, the whole family that yeah, they have joined and I myself have joined oppressive systems like this, like the US military. I'm not going to say that it was, that's not what Well, it's so built in to society. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're like every little bit you're contributing to these oppressive systems, even if you're not the one out here with the gun pointing out a little brown child, right, but these systems are all connected and just you know, to see someone in that line of work like finally like oh he's you know, because I mean the person in the main story is a little more involved, right, but they think they're not they think they're doing the right thing. And so it was it was so fun that one. It was fun. I'm so glad it was fun. There's another that is a different angle on the same question is the title story, The Nightmare Box, because there's a part where the character who is a witch, she makes custom nightmares, and she starts to wonder about who she's really working for because it's set in nineteen seventy, and she notices that all of her victims are somehow connected to the Black Panthers. And so there's this one part where trust me, I'm not spoiling at listeners, but she gets the nightmare box is what brings these objects that she needs to make her nightmares, and they're like usually something that belonged to the victim, but there are also these lists that some person gathered by gathering, you know, spy information on the victims. And so some is out there gathering information on the victim's greatest fear and they're you know, closest family members and all this stuff that's going to be used to emotionally hurt them. And so there's this moment where the main character, Serena, is reading this list that someone's given her so she can make her latest nightmare, and she notices, hey, this is typed up on carbon copy, and she starts to think about the secretary who typed up that list, and whether that secretary who typed up that list ever thought about what she's doing, because you know, that secretary was a she right, and so you know what this list is for and who uses it? Or she just typing away you know, Okay, I'm gonna make this list of you know, greatest fears and closest family members, and then I'm going to file it away and then I'm going to go and have dinner with my friends or whatever. And then at the same time, Serena is also going in her own head as she's thinking this, She's going and what do you tell yourself about what this list is for? Yes, that was another one of my favorites. And the the end of that one too, oh, I was like, I'm I'm glad that she turned it around. That was that was really good too. But even I mean, and you say it after every story, but like what real events, you know a lot of these stories were taking place, but like it's not I think we know a lot of us know now, especially that these parties, the Black Panther, the Young Lords, they were being infiltrated. So just to weave in like a bruquat doing this work. But like at first, she wasn't not like not that she wasn't aware, but she wasn't like I guess awake, you didn't say or she wasn't realizing what she was doing, just to weave that in there. Amazing, Oh my god. Truly. I mean, the the basic premise that I thought of with the Nightmare Box was a bunch of different things. One of the inspirations comes from a Stephen King creation because I grew up reading Stephen King. Did have you ever read The fire Starter or Fire Shorter? I didn't. It's been on my list for so long, but I've only read two Stephen King books ever, Salem's Law and God. It was like a seven book series. What's it called The Dark Tower? Yeah, the Dark Tower? That was the other one. So I've only read those two, that one. What about you gotman? I haven't read any you know, there's like I feel like it's definitely that's a lot of fun to read him if you haven't. There's so much good horror that it's not like, you know, you could you could never read Stephen King and still read plenty of wonderful, wonderful horror. And when you read it now, it's kind of interesting because it's like what we understand has shifted so much. Like I think he's wonderful, and then I also think that he's got some serious problems with like the magical Negro theme, right, yes, the appropriation of some indigenous stories that he's used in the past. So there's there's yeah, that's that's pretty true. But there are fun stories, and you know some of them have like more of that problem than others. But yes, like so, but there's this what do we call them, an organization called the Shop, which he invented for some of his stories. And apparently I played a minor role in The Stand, which I didn't read, so I don't know how it comes out in the Stand. But the Shop, in Stephen King's invention, was basically, you know, they started in the late sixties and they were like cointelpro but with kind of magic, supernatural, mad scientist kind of stuff. And so in Firestarter, for example, the two parents who create this little girl who can start fires with her mind, those two parents went through the series of psychedelic experiments that the Shop organized, and they became permanently altered, very mk ultra. I mean, it's pretty gnarly. And then the thing is they then make a baby, and then this baby, because she's got two parents who are all ready like super altered, then of course the baby is just extra altered and extra powerful, and she's the one who can make start fires with her mind. And so I thought, well, what if, what if it was kind of like the shop and but they were explicitly going after uh, going after the movement, because that's exactly what co intel Pro did, And so that was just it was a really delicious possibility and I kind of might want to return to it because you know, we know how much co intel Pro did at the time, like we know now, yeah, and I'm sure there's even more that we don't. Don't exactly, Yeah, there's stuff that will you know, like maybe people are dead and they and they might have taken their stories to the grave. But you know, so it was really fun to write that and to also write, you know, again the possibility of the tables getting turned on on this guy, and also to wrestle with like what about ordinary people in the movement, you know, or in the time that the that the story is set, the Nightmare Box is set. You know, a lot of people really felt like a revolution was coming any day now, and there were a lot of ordinary people who work revolutionaries, but who still were maybe trying to figure out the right thing to do, and so that's who kind of Serena is'. She rolls her eyes at those people. She thinks they're ridiculous, but she still has to figure out, Okay, well what do I owe you? Even though I think you're silly and I think you're full of shit when you're talking about changing the world? Yes, yes, and that and just seeing her like realize was it was. I mean, yeah, that was a very very fun read. And the thing she can do scary, very scary. I would watch that movie. I would love for someone to make it into a movie. And I guess that's what we all daydream about, right, is those of us who write stuff who could be that movie or who could be in that movie? Sometimes I like to daydream about who would play her if it were made movie? And I think I like Jenn Ortega. Okay, okay, yes, I see it. Why was I going to say the same thing? Yes, yeah, she's a right but she also has such emotional range. There's also I forget her name, but the woman who played in West Side Story, the woman who plays Anita Arianna Debo's. She plays Anita, the older sister in a West Side Story, and she's just mesmerizing like that would be fun too. Because the character Serena in the story is like part Puerto Rican. It's not really clear like how many generations back, but there's Puerto Rican and Mexican in there too, and like there's African American in there too. I also, I should mention because this is it was so much fun to write her making the nightmares and the magic, even if it was really scary and nary, that I wrote a whole novella that is about another witch, very similar and takes place in a same place in time, and I wrote it that they're basically cousins but they don't know it. This sounds amazus amazing. And the character of the they basically had the same magical tutor. She's the great aunt in this one in the Nightmare Box, and she's the grandma in this other novella called Monca, And in both cases she's like the magical tutor, and she doesn't she doesn't have any conventional morality. She's like, you know, I don't I don't care what you do with the magical powers. Just keep it over there, right, And so she's kind of a foil to the other characters. But it was so much fun to write, like, you know, a spell that could make you dance, or a spell that could turn you silent, or just different things like that and kind of play with reality a little bit that, Yeah, that sounds super cool. Another thing that like, I the way you wrote her name's Serena right the in the night. Yeah, like her, yes, the witch, her attitude, and like up until the end is something that it was very real all over the world because in nineteen seventies it wasn't just the US. I was seeing these movements. But like something Carmen and I talk about a little too much is the Salvador in civil war because that's where our dad's from from Salvador and the civil war. I mean it was like, you know, these the right wing military junta and then the leftist revolutionaries, but then it were there were the people in the city that were just trying to work, including our father who all the time, and there's just like this huge mindset that it was like, oh, both sides were wrong, both sides of this, both sides did horrible things, when like in reality we know that a lot of the human rights violations that occurred during that war were perpetated by the right wing government that was there. But people are like our dad, and it wasn't just him, but this was such a common attitude. But it was like, I don't care what is happening. I'm just like trying to survive. I'm just trying to work. Because there's like obviously there's the people that feel like they need to take up arms because they're being affected to the most. But then there's the people that are like, I'm not worried about that. I'm just trying. I need to live too, Like I need to worry about me, and it's not you like I understand it, of course. And just to see her and I just saw that story like the same thing that our day tell us in her and I was like, man, this is it's it's true, and it happens everywhere where. There's like movements like this going on. That is so cool. I what's funny is I swear I'm a lot more articulate on the page, And then I get I get, you know, like in a context of a podcast or a conversation, and all of a sudden, I get that's cool. I get like Chris Farley inside of nightlife. But we're the same way, even though we have a podcast feel that way to me. But it's really beautiful to hear you say that, Christina, because it's just that's an angle in particular, like what was going on in that I wasn't even thinking about when I wrote it, but that it had that level of meaning is super is super rich and meaningful. And also that your situation was able you know that you're able to connect that, and yet they also had in one common threat is that in both cases it's US imperialism straight up. Yes, yes, yes, Like I love the idea honestly of serena kind of you know, meeting up with other people around the world who have US imperialism as their enemy. She will never rest. We're not four seven, three sixty five days a year to be like, man, I take a bigge. She's sober out. I mean, I feel like you can't go anywhere that has not been touched by imperialism. So yeah, I think it would be a shorter list of countries that the US has never invaded or fomented a coup in, or you know, sent soldiers to, right, Like I think, you know, I'm just trying as I'm talking I'm trying to go okay, wait, okay, no, nope, never mind because they had that invasion, oh never mind. Like it's just it's almost impossible. Yeah, Like the collective anger of people who have been invaded and taken over and messed with is just like there's so much there that that's that could be a whole that could be a whole bunch of different authors careers to tap into that. It really could, Yeah, and I would read every single one of them. Yeah, that would be There are there Salvadoran authors who you've read, who you admire, who kind of tap into that in one way or another, you know, not that I can think of on the top of my head. I know there's there's people that will talk about it in different ways on how like the US, you know, imperialism are cooling some like these things who have affected their lives, But like when it comes to like horror, I don't know of any There's a book I think Carmen and I both really loved it, but it was also very sad. But it's like a poet he wrote about his journey from end to the United States. That has probably been the most like impactful thing I've read from a Selvadoran writer. It's called and I think we went on and on about it on Estodias Unknown, Yeah, and the Spooky Tales about our other podcasts that's about history. I forget where we even talked about it in some episode, but that is probably, yeah, one of the best, like books by a Selvadorn author. But like, I don't, I don't. I can't even think of that many authors and I looked it up on the Google. Javier Samora is that the name. Yeah, there has to be more that you know, just hasn't hasn't come across you know, our radar, because that was one of the things that I started realizing when I started reading a whole lot more speculative fiction, you know, mostly horror, but to see in science fiction too is how I assumed, you know, and this was a straight up you know, internalized racism. I assumed, Oh, well, if I haven't heard of, say, Filipino science fiction, that must be because it doesn't exist. No, it's just because I haven't heard of it. But you know, I had to actually, right, but I had to confront that any of it straight up is internalized racism. And so I assumed that yes, there is like a lot of good Salvador in speculative fiction. And the fact as soon as we're done recording, in about three minutes after we're done recording, all the names are going to occur to me all that once. There are some really yeah, I mean there's some wonderful authors of like Chicanis and Latinix speculative fiction. All the names are of course, you know, draining away like water because I have to speak them. But you know, I was just at Sukra Con, which is the horror Writer's convention, and we have PEDROI Nigaz, we have uh Andrew Theyer just to come to the come to mind. There's Rsa Garcia, uh, and then of course there's those who have already come onto the podcast or whose stories have been on the podcast. You got Varcia to write about the Mexican experience and the Castro to write about the Chicana experience. Oh yes, she's like, you know, the the MVP basically of ch kind of speculative fiction, because she just not only does she go there again and again in terms of like the because I'm thinking about La Rena Laics, which is just oh, I still have to read that one. Read that one amazing, gnarly as fuck. I need to read it, to read it. I've only the one we discussed. The Hanta Alexandra is the one that I've read of hers, and you know, one thing she she has a lot of similarities in her books too, And that was one thing I was going to bring up with your books to that A lot of people are like, oh, well, I read fiction to escape from these kinds of things. But it's like, at some point does not escape. I mean, there is an escape when when you're the person benefiting from it from yeah, oppressions, like you can escape because it doesn't affect you. But I mean, you know, for us people of color, like yeah, every day you know, yeah, it's didn't escapable. So yeah, and to see these stories and the things that like, yeah, I don't I guess like if I see it on the news or if I know someone and I don't want to think about the time that the cop did this to one of us or one of our cousins. But but at the same time, when you're reading things like this, it's like you get to see a different twist on it, You get to see something that's powerful. Yeah, it's powerful. Thank you, Carmen, because you're always like thinking of smarter ways to say the things that I want to say. But yeah, and so at the same time, if people are thinking like, oh, I don't want to read a fiction book that is talking about the real life things that I don't want to think about, give these type of books like another chance, especially these collection of stories, because you like I feel, I feel like every issue out there, you're tackling it and you're giving it a new life and something that you know it just it makes you feel better at the end, even though it was kind of sad along the way, right, I love that way of talking about it because and I'm sorry by my dog is decided that right now is the time to bark at the front door. So I hope it doesn't carry it through too bovey. But I mean, I think a couple of things. One is, I totally get why you know, someone doesn't necessarily feel ready to tackle the story about police brutality right now because it's just too heavy for my part. I feel like I feel similar I mean, obviously I wrote them right, but I feel similarly that that there is actually a whole a benefit to seeing well, what would happen if the victims had access to power, Like, you know, how would that change it? And wouldn't that be kind of satisfying and maybe even kind of fun? So, you know, I feel like that is kind of a counter. On the other hand, you know, we have content warnings, you know, so you read the content warnings. It is a little hard to read this collection and not tackle police brutality stories because depending on how you define it, it's basically exactly half the collection is police brutality in one way or another. And you know, some of them are real stories that I remember hearing about, like the one at the end of the road out of Nowhere, that's you know, I changed a few details, but it's basically other than that, it's a real story. And including the part about the dollar bill that's real. Oh yeah, that part I just lifted directly from reality. And I remember thinking, like I have to. I felt like this has to be real, because you can't. Yeah, I remember being afraid that somebody would think I made it up, the whole dollar bill thing, So that's why I made sure to put the note at the end. So and then you know, when I when I was younger I was. I was an activistic inst police brutality, which is part of the reason why they're in these stories so much. The cops are in these stories so much, and just the feeling of absolute powerlessness and having I would work with people who, just like in the story with sold in the Rope of Thorns, had lost a love with cops. Oh my god, Okay, I love that one. And the ending that was I feel like I'm just gonna keep saying that, and the ending I feel like to write and to you know, like the ending is actually the most important thing because if you fumble it at the very very end, people will be like, oh, like and and you don't want to do that. You want to you want to deliver ending. That's that that makes it makes the person either like you know, sometimes it's extremely painful, but the ending has to has to be earned and you have to deliver at the end. And the ending of the Rope Thorns, obviously you know we're not going to say how it gets tackled, but the ending was very satisfying to write, and so I'm so glad that it landed for you on the page that way too. I forgot to mention that was another one of my favorites. I just I loved I'm like, I want a little like toy of we done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it would be so much fun. Like he's kind of his image his look came from an actual puppet that I had, and I don't know what the hell happened to it orf I lost it, and so I'm very sad. So every once in a while I tried to like google it to see because you know, I bought it in Mexico. It's a you know, like a head of a coconut, you know, have coconut shell on the body of like paper machet and black and paper machet, and so I do want to track that down. But it would be so much fun to have a little weeks though, But it was also so much fun, you know, and this is a mild spoiler, so we can turn your ears away, But it was so much fun to have a different to imagine something different for those families who had lost a loved one, because in real life, those people never have had any justice. And you know, I would march with them, We would have marches against police brutality, and I would be On the one hand, it felt so good and empowering to be standing up and fighting back. But on the other hand, at the end of the day they would do all that and not only was there loved one is still gone, but you know, the cop who had had done the killing was still there and had that job. And so it felt as a young person, it was just so scarring, frankly, and so this was kind of a way to put a different ball on that scars on those scars. Yeah, and it was beautifully done, because I want to say it just happened. But Carmen covered on our other podcast Estoia Has Are Known a while back. She covered an episode on it was his name Santos Rodriguez, and it's it was such a horrible case of police brutality in Texas where you know, I mean, I'm not gonna like fully go into it because there's a whole episode on it and it's going to be long, but it's it's such a horrible case. But basically the you know, this cop he killed this young boy, this young Mexican boy, and his brother was in the car when it happened, and like at the end of the day, there's you know, surviving family that they they are still dealing with this, and this happen in what was it the nineteen eighties, nineties, nineteen seventy three, nineteen seventy three, and one of the people that listened to the episode sent us a post that because they had a whole they made a whole statue for him not too long ago to like, you know, have Santos in everyone's like memory, and the brother visited the statue for the first time, and this listener sent us the post that they made about this, and like just and it's funny because I'm like reading all these stories and I'm like, man, like we just this listener just sent us this, and it's like something that has like never gone away, and like will it ever not when you know this curtain system is still what it is. So just to read you know, a different even you know, even though it's like you know, fiction, just to read a different like outcome, it's it feels good, it does, And I'm very glad that it feels good to read, because it felt it felt good to write. And I love actually imagining who I would sick with sol On if he were real Mack in my list as we speaks, because that's what he's good at right, Like he leaves no trace, like, and what are you gonna do? Say, I saw this good come out and you know then they killed, like's gonna believe I was going because that's what they do in real life, the cops. That's what Yeah, that's what they say. Yeah, yeah, they just count on it. So so yeah, that was. That was one of the more recent ones that I wrote. I think that was. I wrote that, like I think I was like frantically finishing editing that when it was time to submit the collection to the publisher, and I almost missed the cutoff, but I've said no, no, no, I have, I have, and we're so glad I made it. Yeah, okay, well I guess we could wrap up because I'm getting a little hungry. Wait, I just want to say one more thing I was gonna say. Yeah, I just like I love the recurring theme, like you said, of people I don't know, taking their power back, having power in society that they you know, had to fight so hard to have that, and it's it's almost healing in a way. I think to read stories like that with different outcomes and I don't things that people are every day working for, right it's not like impossible, like people are fighting to have that. I really love that that that feels good to read and that it feels like healing is because we walk outside and you know, maybe we spend all this work trying to have like a nice calm morning before going out into the world, and then we walk outside and we have to see it all over again, or how we didn't even need that. We could just open up our phone right or our laptop and scroll through, and you know, we're constantly getting these scars inflicted on us, and so it's it's really good to have different ways to heal and to think that these stories had their part to play, like it's really satisfying. And I feel like I'm not sure. I think we'd sol would be like, okay, cool, and I think some of the other kids we should be like that's whateful. So they all think all the characters, yes, okay, And then before we go, we always want to do spooky recommendations. Carmen, do you have any I don't think so other than this book. Other than this book that's mine too. I've already ordered it. It is so awesome and I'm also I'm changing the release schedule, So this comes out this Friday, because it releases on the ninth, right, Okay, so yes, this is going to come out on Friday and then the week after everyone. I mean, you can already pre order it at the time real listening to this and you must. It's so good, like I already did it. And also, I guess, do you have any spooky recommendations because we've already read. I wish i'd compared, because I'm staring at a whole shelf of books right now and they're all really good. But in terms of this, so there's a a collection called The Skin Thief by a writer named Susan Palambo, and I've only had time to read two of them because I sort of nibble at it and then put it back away and then nibble at it again. But one of the things that I love about the collection so far is she tackles a lot of similar themes of identity and what it is to be a marginalized person. And the whole concept of The skin Thief is to have your identity be taken from you and then what does that do to you? And so it's a really I haven't finished it, but it's a really enjoyable collection so far. So I would recommend recommend that for sure, and then if you like more, just if you love like dark berry tamps, this is a little bit of a deeper cut. But Angela Carter wrote this book. Oh boy, she wrote a lot of books and now I'm trying to remember the name of the particular collection that I'm thinking of, because she wrote a take on the Lizzie Borden story that was just so much fun. Like when you read the end of her Lizzie Bordon story, you will absolutely like cheer on Lizzie Bordon. You'll be convinced that Lizzy Bordon did the killing. I was kind of a ready story and you're like, oh my god, go girl. I mean not quite as it's a little bit of a cliche that you go girl, but you definitely will have a lot of sympathy for Lizzie Bordon and you will feel like the parents deserve what they got. So so yeah, it's It's The Bloody Chamber is the most famous book that she wrote. But I will look up into the second the one that has the Lizzy the Lizzie Bordon story, because I think it's a different collection. Yeah, so the skin Thief and Angela Carter. I'm going to add those both to my TV are the other cool thing Dimensioned. If you are thinking about pre ordering, if anyone who's listening, is if you ordered directly from the publisher from Kurs Morse Press, you also get this little zine that I helped edit that is on the scene of Solidarity Forever, and it's all about that theme, right, is the power of solidarity. And so that's a free little gift that you get if you sweets. I did pre order it. Stress on the Polisher I'm excited. Action that I was thinking of was called Saints and Strangers, and the story about the z Boord is called the Fall River Experters. Okay, okay, I'm going to have to add that to my list too, and I will put all that in the show notes as well. But most importantly that will be in their show notes is the link to get the Nimer Box and other stories, because honestly, it's a must read and I'm pretty sure all of our listeners would enjoy it. We did get messages about the Shivering World and how it was like a couple, but the people that I did get it loved the Shivering World. So this this book also amazing, so everyone needs to get it. It's so good, Thank you very much, yes, of course. And then one more thing. Is there any that listeners can find you, like where you want to be found online? If they want to follow you or anything? If I want to be found if it sounds very like uh, you know, Jason, I stole it from Scam Gods. I love that name. She always says that it's fun. It's about scams. Oh, I am obsessed with scams, okay, And it's and she's a comedian and she always has comedians on. And some episodes are so funny. If anyone has not listened and they need to, you need to check out the Eladia Baldwin episode. That's probably my favorite one. Also like the one on Oh my God, I can't remember his real name, but they call him so many different nicknames. Oh you know, ye want to say his real name because I know what it is. I remember what it is. But yes, oh that's right, you those okay. Eladia Bodowin and the Shaun King episodes are probably like on the top of like the best episodes of Scam Goddess ever, the really good so I will look that up, because I really do. I love reading about scams and scam artists. So yeah, so that's all of fun. So in terms of where people can find so, I have a website that I almost never update because I am kind of a luddite and I'm kind of an old but I do have one. It's called Cynthia SA's boo dot org press and there's a link tree there where you can find my writings and everyone's in a blue mood. I actually update it, but for the most part, I just curse at it. I try to figure out why it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. And all right, I guess this brings us to the end of the episode. Let's say, before we go, Carmen and I will be oh my god, it's coming up. Carmen, Damn, did you book the car rental? I still need to get the carnal. Carmen and I we're going to be in Denver. We're gonna be at the True Crime Paranormal Podcast Festival, and you can find us there. We're gonna have a little panel, and that little panel is also going to be online. I think I'll double check that and I will share the links in the socials as well, because I think I think if I recall that it was going to be available for like a virtual ticket if anyone wants to do that, but if anyone is in the area and you want to go do so that we can meet you. We can say Hi, I'm gonna have a couple of stickers to hand out, and that's it. I don't know how people have all this like extra Monday for merriage not I oh before we go though, I forgot to say. But I obviously I knew that Oakland was going to come up again. But then I saw Modesto in the book, and I was like, oh my god, Modesto because that's that's where we went. And so we grew up in Oakland, and then when we reached like high school age, we moved to Modesto because and I think we talked about it last time we recorded, but we got like, you know, pushed out of Oakland because of all the high renting prices, and that's when we went to Modesto. So when I saw Modesto come up in one of the stories, I'm like, the two places that I like still love to talk about. And I know people like to hit him modesto, but I have fund memories, so every time we hear modesto or like anything, and I like two O nine, that's so stocked in. Did Starck thing come up too? I think it did, right, Remember Stockton? Did I know Madesta did it? It's where it's where the family and in will they disappeared like because they're always bopping around. But yeah, I remember that. We talked about your your roots in Oakland, and it's why I was really happy to come back here on this pod because we had such cool conversations about Oakland and what it means and the history here and so it's so much fun. Also, by the way, I've been meaning to mention this the whole time we've been recording. Uh, Christina, the painting that you have. Listeners can't see it, but behind Christina is just this wonderful painting still from Scream from the first Scream, and it's Yeah, it's a brilliant Stew And you know they're they're they're You've got Stew gazing lovingly at Billy just the way he does. They're cuddling bloody. Yeah, it's the oldest child for Alma from Nightmare on Fifth Street paint today, and then she on my made it available for a while to buy, and I don't think they have it up anymore. But when the minute she put it up, I'm like, I need it. Yes, and it's yes, it's it's it's so well done and look blowing eyes. Yeah. And it's funny the things we pick up on, because I did not pick up on any of that homerootic stuff the first time I watched it. And then I watched it again a couple of years ago, and I was like, it was right there. I I caught it when Scary Movie made it. Yeah, h no, Scary Movie two. It's the two, which was the one that was the first one. It's the first one. It's the first movie. Yeah. Yeah, where they Yeah, they make they make them like super good. They make that big leap. Oh man, No it's not it's really not. Okay, Well, I want to take him up any more of your time and also my own, because I gotta get to being to record. Thank you so much for having me and for letting me babbel about Oakland and stories and magic and the supernatural for an hour. Listen anytime anything you ever write, come welcome back always you know what, you know, what you must. It's not even like you're welcome, like it just has to happen. Anytime you send something this is open horror back. I'm like, yeah, let's do it's right now, say no more. I have a have a novella and she's coming out at some point because I'm sending her out. And I'm confident that at some point when Yaka will find a home that's the one that I was mentioning about witchcraft again. So if and when when Yaka friends it home, I will I will hit you guys up and we'll talk about okay when it does for sure, for sure, all right, thank you so much, yes, of course, no, thank you, And everyone else I don't know, say it's spooky. We'll catch you next time. By My Spooky Sales is hosted by Christina and MJ, produced and edited by Christina. Everything is written and researched by Christina MJ and with the help of Don Shout Out Don. Thank you so much for your help. If you love what you hear, consider living us a five star review. If you don't, then do not leave us anything please. If you want short spooky stories, follow us on TikTok at Spooky Taels. You can also find some of the same videos posted on Instagram and that is at Spooky Taels. Everything is linked in the show notes. If you want bonus episodes, stickers, exclusives, stickers might I add, then consider joining our patreon go over to patreon dot com slash Spooky Tails. There are over at least fifteen bonus episodes right now, and we do at least one a month, sometimes two, depending on how we are feeling. If you want to support the podcast and don't or can't or don't want to, that's fine. Join the Patreon, then consider getting some merch. We have an adorable beanie that I love. I absolutely adore it. It's so comfy, it's warm, it has a spooky in Old English letters. There's also a baseball hat in the same way as spooky and Old English letters, and that's what I wear in the summers. They're both awesome hats. And there's other things in there, like the no Mama's shirts, which is a very popular shirt. If you like history, check out my other podcast, Istodia is Unknown, hosted with the unofficial official guest co host of a Spooky teals Carmen, and if you like no VELAs, checkout Novelaskofizito, which Carmen and I also host together. And yeah, we love every single listen every single a spooky thank you so much, stay as spooky